A Poll Regarding the IT Rules Set

[frnkhous]

To all those that listed line items, as cameron pointed out, why do you wanna remove hvac systems, and windshield wiper components? I can kinda go with the washerbottle, again I don't understand the fascination with being allowed to remove it for the sake of it. and I can see somebody actually using it, but I can understand allowing removal of the washer bottle and the horn. But then I get to headlight replacement and start seeing $$$. Only reason I see for allowing removal of those is weight, once you start that you got carbon fiber covers, why not allow the fenders and hood as well? I'm really shocked that almost 60% of people wanna allow the removal of more stuff. I could make my own headlight covers, remove everything on the list from my car myself if I wanted too, but I just simply don't get it. For sure I wouldn't be removing the wipers or the heatercore/blowermotor and i'm kinda baffled at the suggestion of the rest. I'm curious how many of the people asking for this have been around a racecar that didn't have one of those things in the rain. I have and you don't wanna remove them.

[matt batson]

To all those that listed line items, as cameron pointed out, why do you wanna remove hvac systems, and windshield wiper components? I can kinda go with the washerbottle, again I don't understand the fascination with being allowed to remove it for the sake of it. and I can see somebody actually using it, but I can understand allowing removal of the washer bottle and the horn. But then I get to headlight replacement and start seeing $$$. Only reason I see for allowing removal of those is weight, once you start that you got carbon fiber covers, why not allow the fenders and hood as well? I'm really shocked that almost 60% of people wanna allow the removal of more stuff. I could make my own headlight covers, remove everything on the list from my car myself if I wanted too, but I just simply don't get it. For sure I wouldn't be removing the wipers or the heatercore/blowermotor and i'm kinda baffled at the suggestion of the rest. I'm curious how many of the people asking for this have been around a racecar that didn't have one of those things in the rain. I have and you don't wanna remove them.

I may be mistaken, but there wouldnt be anything in the rules that says you HAVE to remove those items...right?

If you have a hard time making weight, I guarantee removing some of these items would be cheaper than super lightweight wheels.
And this is supposed to be a class we can run cheaply in and still be competitive.

I have non-functioning wipers. I run rain ex if it rains. My heater doesnt work either.

It rained for much of my drivers school back in 04 at moroso and I pretty much dominated without either.

[jjjanos]

I may be mistaken, but there wouldnt be anything in the rules that says you HAVE to remove those items...right?

If you allow it, then the front-runners will need to do it to maintain position. It's an arms race. Someone builds a dreadnaught and everyone needs to build one just to maintain parity.

[matt batson]

sorry, but I dont see the big deal. If the front runners want to remove the stuff they can. If they want to keep their windshield washer bottles or motors, they can.
And I dont see how this will cost anybody any money or frustration.


Now, you wanna talk arms race, then we can talk about the ECU and final drive allowances that never should have made it into the rulebook. Talk about costing the front runners money...

[lateapex911]

sorry, but I dont see the big deal. If the front runners want to remove the stuff they can. If they want to keep their windshield washer bottles or motors, they can.
And I dont see how this will cost anybody any money or frustration.


Now, you wanna talk arms race, then we can talk about the ECU and final drive allowances that never should have made it into the rulebook. Talk about costing the front runners money...

Well, we could just not allow ECU cars in.....

[seckerich]

sorry, but I dont see the big deal. If the front runners want to remove the stuff they can. If they want to keep their windshield washer bottles or motors, they can.
And I dont see how this will cost anybody any money or frustration.


Now, you wanna talk arms race, then we can talk about the ECU and final drive allowances that never should have made it into the rulebook. Talk about costing the front runners money...

You have only been around IT for a short period Matt. All those rules were in place when you started. You read the rules and made a decision to play. There is a balancing act between letting drivers change enough to be excited about a class and allowing so much it gets out of hand. Washer bottle is no big deal unless it covers a big hole in front of the air intake. Then it is not such a small deal. Every seemingly simple rule change has unintended consequences. Now you have to go fix what WAS NOT BROKEN.

[frnkhous]

No, in the case of the hvac and wiper parts I would not remove them unless i'd exhausted every other means of getting the car within 50lbs of weight. The problem I see is it will become accpetable to class cars a weights based on achieving a weight with these items removed. A fully prepped car is still fully prepped. You guys simply want to add farther to what that includes when it comes to removing things. I get the washer bottle(not sure why it is so hotly desired for removal even the argument that it is hard to get for a few seems weak when you figure how few people it really affects in a year) but I undertand removing it. The other items i'll argue you simply haven't been around road racing long enough if you don't see the serious downsides to the removal. No you won't have to remove them but how long before people cry because they scca doesn't black flag all so that people can come in and get wipers etc. No thankyou, these are production based vehicles and if it doesn't make it safer to remove it leave it alone.

The Ecu rule is a silly argument, If you don't like it then I think you should be ok with the idea of a completely stock carb with needles as delivered on your datsun, as well as completely stock ignition controls. NO changing weights, pickups points etc. Otherwise your already getting many of the benefits of the ecu rule.

[jjjanos]

The ECU rule is a red-herring. My understanding is that the rule was changed in two phases.

Second, and most liberal change, free ECUs. The motivation for this was equity and to lessen the cost of the arms race. There was a set of cars that could cram an after-market ECU into the stock housing a/o custom chip installed in the stock housing. The cost was prohibitive for most, but for the big buck guy, within budget. Given the relaxation of the original standard, it made sense.

First, and least liberal change, was the stock housing rule. As I recall, this was not done to allow allowances a/o performance improvement. It was done because the stock ECU rule was becoming/had become unenforceable. Consequently, dropping the stock ECU rule made sense.

Now alternate final drives... there you have something.

[spawpoet]

No, in the case of the hvac and wiper parts I would not remove them unless i'd exhausted every other means of getting the car within 50lbs of weight. The problem I see is it will become accpetable to class cars a weights based on achieving a weight with these items removed. A fully prepped car is still fully prepped. You guys simply want to add farther to what that includes when it comes to removing things. I get the washer bottle(not sure why it is so hotly desired for removal even the argument that it is hard to get for a few seems weak when you figure how few people it really affects in a year) but I undertand removing it. The other items i'll argue you simply haven't been around road racing long enough if you don't see the serious downsides to the removal. No you won't have to remove them but how long before people cry because they scca doesn't black flag all so that people can come in and get wipers etc. No thankyou, these are production based vehicles and if it doesn't make it safer to remove it leave it alone.

The Ecu rule is a silly argument, If you don't like it then I think you should be ok with the idea of a completely stock carb with needles as delivered on your datsun, as well as completely stock ignition controls. NO changing weights, pickups points etc. Otherwise your already getting many of the benefits of the ecu rule.

The argument I was making had nothing to do with parity between carb'd cars and FI cars. Simply that if we think we can safely open up ECU rules (you HAVE to admit that is very complex), then a washer bottle should be simple to approach. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for the parity argument, why weren't the carb'd cars running away with all the IT wins when other FI cars were "stuck" with a stock ECU? Honest question. Was there parity, before the ECU rules were opened up, between FI cars and carb'd cars? Maybe the answer is no, but there is an inherent advantage in having an ECU over carbs. Just because changing needles etc can overcome some of the disadvantage of having carbs, doesn't mean carb'd cars were at a major advantage before the ECU rules were changed. And from what I understand that was NOT the reasons the ECU rules were changed. I believe they were changed because it was considered difficult to police.

[lateapex911]

I may be mistaken, but there wouldnt be anything in the rules that says you HAVE to remove those items...right?

If you have a hard time making weight, I guarantee removing some of these items would be cheaper than super lightweight wheels.
And this is supposed to be a class we can run cheaply in and still be competitive.

Lightweight wheels will return 8X the performance advantage of a 3 pound windshield wiper motor in the dry.


And when you are racing on a slimy, drying, oiled down track in the rain, the 3 pound wiper motor will reduce you lap times bey a measurable amount, maybe a second or more.

I speak from experience...of two days ago, when my wiper motor failed. I was pissed that no store had one until Monday.

Again, it's an arms race.