2010 NARRC Series Feedback

[Greg Amy]

Come on man - that was the goofiest post I've seen from you. Don't care about a championship? - bullcrap.

Waaa...? You equate "joy of competition" and "winning" and "competition" only with winning a series championship? If it's all about the season numbers,why don't we do Fantasy Racing instead? After all, I can win a championship that way much more cheaply...

Hey, when was the last time you were drinking with the guys and you reminisced and review play-by-play about winning a championship? I'd suggest you spent a hell of a lot more time talking about specific races...because that's what it's all about. No one remembers championships, everybody remembers good individual races.

Personally, I'd rather tan your ass on a race-by-race basis...the effect is immediate and the bull-shatting lasts a lot longer...

[gran racing]

Second - Greg? WTF? You not in this for the joy of competition? You get tired of winning? I love racing because of the competition. Otherwise I'd do PDX days... Come on man - that was the goofiest post I've seen from you. Don't care about a championship? - bullcrap.

Ben, I totally understand where Greg is coming from. He's not saying he gets tired of winning, but is talking about chasing one of many "championship" series. If people enjoy doing that, good for them.

After coming back from a fantastic Summit Point weekend, agreeing much with what Greg said, hearing how regions want to focus on improving participation...maybe the time and energy would be better spent focusing on making a few amazing events. Yes, I know we have some very good events but talking about taking it to another level such as the IT Fest, Summit's Labor Day Weekend, and ARRC. More to come in another thread.

[benspeed]

Hey Greg - you are an expert at putting words in other peoples posts - you used the word ONLY - don't play that rookie debate crap with me, thanks. I don't have patience for people reworking what I say. That irritates the shit out of me.

My point is clearly that competition is why we race, otherwise do a PDX. That's why it's called RACING. I would rather tan your ass over an entire season which is what shows who was the best driver that season, not a particular particular race. It's tougher to win a championship.

But I do agree that when we are hanging out drinking all of Crazy Joe's Yeungling, folks talk about specific races, not self aggrandizing over their Championship season.

But don't diminish the importance of a racing championship. (Wait - I forgot the smilely face so I'm not so pissy :-)

[Greg Amy]

Hey Greg - you are an expert at putting words in other peoples posts - you used the word ONLY - don't play that rookie debate crap with me, thanks. I don't have patience for people reworking what I say. That irritates the shit out of me.

Easy there, cowboy! Notice that was a question, my friend...? I'm trying to point out that in my opinion placing a priority on series over enjoying individual races can skew your perspective and actually cause you to enjoy the individual events less. If I had to choose between enjoying the individual events more and the series less, or vice versa, I'd choose the former in a heartbeat. And I have.

Sure, it's "tougher" to win a championship than an individual race, but you're mistaken that the winner of the series is necessarily indicates the "best driver". All a series championship primarily does is indicate which competitors are more "devoted" (i.e., willing to commit more resources) to running the entire series, and then - and only then - deciding within that smaller subset who is the "best driver". If The Randy Pobst comes in and beats us all in one or two races, but doesn't run the series, are you going to claim that by winning the series championship that you or I are the better driver than The Randy Pobst?

I certainly don't diminish the accomplishment of winning a series championship;hell, been there, done that, several times. I'm simply pointing out is has no value to me. I will quickly pass on that 13th or 14th NHMS NARRC/NERRC/MARRS/whatever event to be able to compete at a Pro-IT event in New Jersey, or the ITFest at Mid-Ohio, or the ARRC at Road Atlanta. I do this hobby because I enjoy the events, the races themselves, not the season-long quest for the series.

But, if that's the focus, that we want to prove who's the better drivers over a full season of racing, then it should be all races, all tracks, everything counts, and no drops. Want to "prove" who's the better season-long driver? All in, babe; that's how they do it in the Bigs.

Everything else is just posing.

And, on a lighter note, I suspect you highly misunderstand the competitive nature of PDX events...

Greg

[StephenB]

I'm actually a bit different (OK no jokes :eek: ) than the rest of you because I actually refocused my agenda to go FOR a championship last year and this year. I took 2 years before that to travel and race at "bigger" more attended races like the ARRC, IT Fest, ect but found that I was missing something all summer long. I missed the anticipation of waiting between events in a championship to see what is going to happen next. What twist and turn will the next race create in the series championship. I will admit I have always been in the top 5 litteraly battling to the last 2 races to get on the podium. Last year it was a thrill ride that took many turns and made my last race of the year that more interesting. I knew what cars I had to beat and by how much and it became a race inside the race I was participating in. I also enjoy spending the entire summer participating in what feels like a summer long event rather than just jumping around. I like the build-up, the friendships I get from racing the same guys/gals all summer and I truelly like the challenge to win a series over just a weekend. I also admit that if I was in a class that I had no chance of getting on the series podium it would probably be much less interesting to race in the championship series and I would actually go for the more exciting weekends.

I do enjoy and probably do share stories from a the view of a particular race weekend rather than from the view of the championship but all those race weekends that I am doing and the storys that come from them all have an effect on the outcome of the series championship which make them that more interesting to me.

I submitted my proposal for a complete revamp that would include making the NARRC RUNOFFS a must run event in the NESCCA Division much like the National Runoffs are for the SCCA National Division of our club. It follows the National Points structure and philosophy as I understand it allowing ALL Regional Races in the NESCCA to qualify and at the same time helps reduce travel for those interested in running in it.

It's funny how we are all so different on what we like and even that changes from season to season. At least one thing is for sure... we all like competition and we have a desire to drive

Stephen
2008 TeamDI Pro-ITB Series Champion!

[Doc Bro]

But, if that's the focus, that we want to prove who's the better drivers over a full season of racing, then it should be all races, all tracks, everything counts, and no drops. Want to "prove" who's the better season-long driver? All in, babe; that's how they do it in the Bigs.


Greg

Actually Greg that would prove who's "more devoted" than the current system, rather than who's a better driver. In the current system you get guys dropping podium finishes, with your proposal they could keep them, to their benefit. In other words, keeping everything favors the "working man driver" over the guy who elects to sit one or two out or has an occaisional Mulligan. I think the current NARRC structure is poor because of that fact.

R

[Jeremy Billiel]

- Fewer Races
- Only one race per track
- Longer Races
- No Bonus Points (not needed if only one race per track)
- Money should be awarded to the drivers at year end
- Remove Admin Fee
- Add Palmer in 2011
- NARRC-OFFs is still last ane only event at LRP for NARRC Points

No one is listening. This championship shoudl not be about who attends more races. Per my prior post. No bonus points, only one track each and to Jerry's prior post NJMP and NHMS only get one event not 2 tracks. It's as easy as that!

[Doc Bro]

No one is listening. This championship shoudl not be about who attends more races. Per my prior post. No bonus points, only one track each and to Jerry's prior post NJMP and NHMS only get one event not 2 tracks. It's as easy as that!

Jeremy,

You do mean one WEEKEND per track not one race right. Otherwise how long are you anticipating the race to be, and what would "your" schedule look like?

Here's the format I would use.

Two points races per weekend only one weekend per track in the NARRC series.

Sat AM 10-15 min Qualify
Sat PM Points race 30min with a random invert of finishing to set grid or something like that to keep it interesting
Sun AM second 30 min qualifying race finishing order sets grid
Sun PM 45min points race

R

[gran racing]

Jeremy, people are listening and that series is called PRO IT. It's the first series I've actually been somewhat tempted by.

There are numerous series throughout the nation where it's much more about who attends the most events in a particular series then whose the best. How many different series are there even in the NE alone? NARRC, NERRC, Pro IT, ???

One can't compare the various championship series in SCCA Club Racing to PRO (racing, football, baseball, or whatever). Much, much different secenarios.

You do mean one WEEKEND per track

As you're stating, less races applies to these series as well. Make it more manageable for people to run a full series which generates more interest. More interest and participants generates additional competition. It all goes hand-in-hand.

[benspeed]

Jeremy - agreed!

Greg - you are my friend and I am a cowboy :-) But I do bust balls if I don't like something and you get tougher scrutiny on this topic because you are a multi champion and ARRC winner.

I feel strongly that racing for a championship is a big part of the game and a measure of skill. But after ruminating on Greg's position that a myopic focus on the championship can kill the fun, there's truth to that. I remember racing for the NARRC ITS championship in '05 and just pouring $$ into the car, rushing to fix before the next race, racing 10-12 weekends to have enough participation points to even be in the hunt, adjusting on the car between every sesssion - that did kill down a lot of the fun of the race weekend and just enjoing the moment of being at the track.

Being myopic or singularly focused on the championship result - that's a trap I fell into and the hobby was less fun. Realized it, changed my priorities and still ran for championships and won a couple and had WAY more fun. So I believe I understand your position better - that you are not seeking to diminish the value of a championship - your point is a myopic approach to going after a championship can outweigh the moment, the weekend fun with friends. I agree that the merit of the championship is less because of the points format.

What we want to solve for is how to construct a championship that does reward skill and effort and not be a participation trophy like every kid gets on the soccer team - that is meaningless. A championship should demonstrate who was the best driver over the course of a season from results on the podium, not bonus points for attendance.

[Doc Bro]

A championship should demonstrate who was the best driver over the course of a season from results on the podium, not bonus points for attendance.

Amen!!

Those bonus points have been unfairly used by regions to boost attendance at their failing events at the expense of the drivers wallet.

R

[Andy Bettencourt]

Amen!!

Those bonus points have been unfairly used by regions to boost attendance at their failing events at the expense of the drivers wallet.

R

Not the past year. The Pocono bonus is gone. Bonus points are given out for attending 5+ events and 3 or more tracks. You guys really think they impact a championship that has 14 events and takes the best 8? In reality, you should HAVE TO go to 5 in order to even be eligible for the year end hunt. Half + 1 is a very common way to do this. The track bonus is to try and make sure a driver wasn't a one-track wonder and a true multi-track driver.

To Greg's point about the 'big-guys' and that is how they do it - we aren't them. Meaning we have real jobs and real lives. We don't have back up cars and big sponsors. It seemingly makes sense to do a 'best of' system or else it WOULD be an attendance award!!! This is an attempt at a system that rewards the best given the reality of real life. No? What would be better?

My redo suggestion dumps the bonus points but keeps in a minimum amount of events (5) to qualify. It has 8 weekends on 6 tracks over 7 months providing 12 points opportunities. Doubles every weekend exept two events following schools. If you require 5 events, you don't need to incent people because you are demanding it, if you have events at all the tracks and not a slew at one, you don't need track bonuses.

[ner88]

Sat AM 10-15 min Qualify
Sat PM Points race 30min with a random invert of finishing to set grid or something like that to keep it interesting
Sun AM second 30 min qualifying race finishing order sets grid
Sun PM 45min points race

R

How about Sunday AM 30 min Points races
Sunday PM (3) 45 min races
1. PRO IT
1. PRO SM
1. PRO SFR
Your fastest lap of weekend sets grid for PRO races, in other words you must run the regional.

[Jeremy Billiel]

How about Sunday AM 30 min Points races
Sunday PM (3) 45 min races
1. PRO IT
1. PRO SM
1. PRO SFR
Your fastest lap of weekend sets grid for PRO races, in other words you must run the regional.

Interesting idea Jerry!

[ner88]

It's not a NARRC race, It's a NARRC EVENT.
I want everyone to want to attend the event!
Just calling a race a NARRC race dosen't bring in racers anymore or at least enough to make a difference.
5 Events-5 Tracks!
No bonus points, no runoff!

[Doc Bro]

Not the past year. The Pocono bonus is gone. Bonus points are given out for attending 5+ events and 3 or more tracks. You guys really think they impact a championship that has 14 events and takes the best 8? In reality, you should HAVE TO go to 5 in order to even be eligible for the year end hunt. Half + 1 is a very common way to do this. The track bonus is to try and make sure a driver wasn't a one-track wonder and a true multi-track driver.

To Greg's point about the 'big-guys' and that is how they do it - we aren't them. Meaning we have real jobs and real lives. We don't have back up cars and big sponsors. It seemingly makes sense to do a 'best of' system or else it WOULD be an attendance award!!! This is an attempt at a system that rewards the best given the reality of real life. No? What would be better?

My redo suggestion dumps the bonus points but keeps in a minimum amount of events (5) to qualify. It has 8 weekends on 6 tracks over 7 months providing 12 points opportunities. Doubles every weekend exept two events following schools. If you require 5 events, you don't need to incent people because you are demanding it, if you have events at all the tracks and not a slew at one, you don't need track bonuses.

That is true AB, an omission on my part, and if memory serves me that also came out of our town hall 2 years ago [bonus points to Pocon that is].

R

[Doc Bro]

How about Sunday AM 30 min Points races
Sunday PM (3) 45 min races
1. PRO IT
1. PRO SM
1. PRO SFR
Your fastest lap of weekend sets grid for PRO races, in other words you must run the regional.

Hmmmmmm......

R

On edit, will there be a second entry fee for the "Pro" part of the weekend?

[ner88]

Hmmmmmm......

R

On edit, will there be a second entry fee for the "Pro" part of the weekend?

Of course! or we can just charge more for 1 entry?

[Eagle7]

...Sure, it's "tougher" to win a championship than an individual race, but you're mistaken that the winner of the series is necessarily indicates the "best driver". All a series championship primarily does is indicate which competitors are more "devoted" (i.e., willing to commit more resources) to running the entire series, and then - and only then - deciding within that smaller subset who is the "best driver". If The Randy Pobst comes in and beats us all in one or two races, but doesn't run the series, are you going to claim that by winning the series championship that you or I are the better driver than The Randy Pobst?...

Greg

My rookie year I was at least 5 seconds off the pace. I don't think I beat anybody on-track. Back then we had to sign up for the Champ series, and only a handfull did. Points were awarded solely based on the relative finishing position of Champ series drivers, and they gave double points for select events. I clinched the division championship with the double 1st place points I got by blowing up on lap 10 of an 18 lap race. That trophy is not one I display proudly.

[dpc]

Maybe it is time to look at minium number of cars per class to be included to be a champ....I mean what thrill is to be a champ of 3-4 cars, maybe your friend next door will see that champ trophy and think you beat 42 others like naccar. guess I opened my mouth again with out a dog in this fight. but I have a hard time looking at a champ that beat 3 other cars all season long.....sorry dave