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Thread: Big Picture of IT - Share Your Opinions

  1. #341

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    REALLY? Little play, comment on various topics brought up including the Audi which I think is what this is actually about. Jim Drago has no confindence that the process could be correct and that car should be 200 lbs lighter is the problem. He's not content to set the weight, and then allow the ITAC to look later if it appears that it makes above the standard power multiplier. I think it got play over 16 pages Andy. It may not have been the only discussion but most thought it should get the weight break. The cars in question are being beaten on a regular basis. They weren't below the track record when they managed to qualify on the front row at the arrc. They didn't go to tech. And they definetly used bump drafting to improve the lap times to get on the front row.

    But if you don't think it got play I'll say that I think the car should get the processed weight. When one shows up and dominates the competition and sets new track records everywhere it goes, i'll consider it time to start asking for dyno sheets. You can't force someone to give that info up, but if it is the car to have other's will build one shortly and somebody will share the info.

    To add to this, If you don't like any of this right now, don't bother the ITAC, they are getting the brunt of the complaints from the members of the IT community and that will do no good. Go directly to the crb and bod members. That will be much more effective than squeezing the ITAC on both sides and making them want to stop volunteering. Most of them from what I gather enjoy being on the ITAC, lately pressure from the crb and now an overflow of pm's/email from members has at least some of them rethinking being members of the ITAC.

    Brian
    Last edited by frnkhous; 09-20-2009 at 10:26 AM.

  2. #342
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    Thought I would cross post the response from Kirk. I sent my letter to the BOD first week this posted. If you care or have an opinion then let them know. I will be speaking with a few at the SIC to be sure. This BS about no input or discussion until AFTER they make a decision is not cutting it.





    from roadrace autox.com:
    Do NOT blame Andy or the rest of the ITAC for this situation, y'all. Andy was only the messenger and he was pretty much compelled to pass on the CRB's (or member(s) of the CRB's) directive. I complied with it because I couldn't ignore it without leaving him in the doo-doo with the CRB, and I didn't feel that I could fulfill my commitment to the committee, category, and members without being able to ask hard questions and voice opinions about points on which I disagree with CRB members, some of you all, et al.

    And while there are differences among the ITAC members, the consensus direction of the group - which is evident to anyone reading Fastrack over the past 18 months, when I was involved - has been very conservative. This plays out both in terms of being VERY reluctant about new allowances (avoiding rules creep) and working toward the goal of having a transparent, repeatable process for spec'ing cars - absolutely staying out of the competition adjustment (bleah!) business.*

    Comments from CRB members who sat in on our calls (Keane, Albin, Dowie) have sounded in the past few months increasingly skeptical about our first principle re: the latter - that we'd rather have a repeatable, transparent system than one that attempts to get every car "right" - as long as "right" is defined in terms of anecdotal observed on-track performance.

    The lack of action on a large number of IT weight recommendations (now voted on since the ITAC's August meeting, as I understand it), and then the Audi bouncing back to us, got me to a point where I became VERY worried about a return to anecdotal, "performance-based" weight adjustments. This was when I started the IT.com thread on the "future of IT." I tried VERY hard to use that venue to encourage members to make their priorities known to their representatives, although I confess that my negativity showed through more than once in my comments. DESPITE that, I could envision at least three scenarios in which I would be OK with things:

    1. We determine that the Audi in question does indeed make more than the 25% standard assumed power gain over stock in IT form, we change our recommendation to a new process weight, and the CRB votes on it** or...

    2. We determine that it does NOT make more than expected power and the CRB votes to support the ITAC recommendation to set it at it's process weight, or...

    3. We recommend a process weight in ANY scenario, but the CRB votes to add weight regardless - but is willing to go on record as having done so.

    It might surprise you that I'd be cool with that last option but I would have been. The ITAC recommends and the CRB decides. If they thought we were wrong, they would be completely within their purview to ignore our recommendation. You all (those member thingies) would then be empowered to communicate to each entity to explain what you think is best for the category.

    What I could NOT handle would have been the ITAC being co-opted into participating in what looked like a seamless process, that spit out a weight inconsistent with what the process recommended. Or invisible adjustments by the CRB to process-derived weights, without documentation of where the changes came from.***

    Jim Drago recently communicated with the ITAC and indicated his fundamental disagreement with our first assumption (repeatability over "correctness"), and promised that he wasn't going to change his mind any time soon. My confidence was shaken a little by some of the things we read from him but, or answers he wouldn't give, even though I felt like I needed to know more about what the rest of the ITAC was thinking, I was still going to try...

    Then I got the directive from the CRB.

    I explained in my resignation letter to the ITAC members that I had decided to let the Audi question play itself out. Ironically, I had also gotten to the point at IT.com where I had backed out of the fray, figuring that i wasn't making any difference and that if a critical mass of IT drivers wanted competition adjustments (bleah!) and more allowances to change/remove stock parts, it wouldn't help for me to keep hollering about it.

    So right now?

    I firmly believe that many, perhaps all, of the current CRB members do not want IT to use the classing/specifying process recently codified by the ITAC - most notably, they want to reserve the right to add or subtract weight from any process-derived result if they think for whatever reason a car might be "too fast" based on observation of race cars on race tracks.

    I more firmly believe they don't want to make information about the use of that approach available to the members. The Club still has a detrimental culture of "opacity" (not my word but I'll take it!) where rules making, stewardship, the Court of Appeals and other management structures are concerned. It came up repeatedly - although less and less as my tenure went on - that giving members too much information would just make it necessary to answer a bunch of questions, that someone would ALWAYS be upset with ANY decision, etc., as rationale for not doing things like publishing the process and practices that surround it. I'm a big freakin' Lefty about stuff like this but I believe that members should know what's going on; and that leaders should ask for input, make the decision they think best, be held accountable for their decisions through processes to ascertain success, and be willing to live with the good and bad outcomes (and opinions!) as they might arise.

    YOU ALL need to not bitch here or at IT.com - again, most particularly not to Andy et al. on the ITAC. They still have things they want to try to accomplish, I imagine, and are (as Andy has pointed out) very interested in the outcome of what looks like will be something of a process to revisit the Audi power question. You DO need to make sure that you know what you care about in the big picture of IT, you know what you'll have to give up or compromise to get it, and that you'll share your vision and priorities for the category with your CRB and BoD members.

    You can't count on someone being your proxy (e.g., any of the ITAC members), and you CAN probably change the Club - if you are willing to have the hard conversations.

    K



    * Competition adjustment is defined any time you see me use the term as weight adjustments based solely on on-track performance (finishes, lap times, qualifying positions).

    ** To get to its current listed weight, this car would have to make something approaching 40% more power in IT than stock.

    *** And for the zillionth time, remember that the process in its current iteration is NOT a "pure objective formula," that doesn't have any room for the application of judgment. There is (as of last week) for all intents and purposes ONE and only ONE place where the ITAC can dig up and consider evidence to have subjective flexibility - the power multiplier. This (again, last I saw of it) is the most diddle-proof system ever used in to spec IT weights, and in all likelihood the most predictable ever applied in SCCA Club racing.
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  3. #343
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    Someone wanna PM me on what this "Audi Thing" is all about? I obviously missed in amidst all the poo-flinging...

  4. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Amy View Post
    Someone wanna PM me on what this "Audi Thing" is all about? I obviously missed in amidst all the poo-flinging...
    Member request to revisit the ITB Audi Coupe weight, ITAC ran the numbers, no evidence to use anything other than the SOP 25% power multiplier, recommendation comes out of the process that the car should be listed something like 200 pounds less than its current ITCS weight, recommendation not voted on by CRB and instead returned to the ITAC for "closer look."

    K

    PS - My phone battery died and my charger is at work, Greg. I'll call you after we get done with some errands this AM, on Laurene's phone.

  5. #345
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    Quick thoughs:

    1. I think all discussion on IT.com is good and any "gag" on that bad. Some of it might not cast the CRB in the best light; they are welcome to post here and correct anything they see as wrong.

    2. A couple of the guys on the CRB who participate on the ITAC calls are gret guys and do in my mind seem to have the best interests of IT in mind, and understand that the ITAC and IT membership have worked hard to get where we are.

    3. I think fundamentally we are looking at a culture clash between IT culture and the rest of SCCA culture. IT = we discuss and decide things on forum, in the open and expect it to be that way especially since 2001/02/03. SCCA = decisions are made in private. IT = we prefer repeatability, predicability and stability over equality. SCCA = a foundational principle is to use on track performance to make cars equal.

    No. 3 is why we are where we are.
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  6. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Amy View Post
    I deleted a post above because it contained private information - home mailing address and telephone numbers - of the CRB members. Regardless of the fact that I agree with the basis premise behind this post, I firmly believe this way over-the-line.
    All of that information is available on the SCCA website.
    Last edited by jjjanos; 09-20-2009 at 11:11 AM.

  7. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Bettencourt View Post
    All I will say from here on in is that you don't know the whole story. Simple. 2 weeks from now, there will be a decision made, sides taken and information given.

    I posed the question we are debating on this very forum and it got little play.
    Well Andy, all people can go on is the information they have, or what they can get by reading between the lines. I have a lot of respect for Kirk (as I think a lot of folks here and at the sandbox do). He and I have not always agreed, but I have never felt that he wasn't always above board and acted in a way that he felt was in the best interest of the category.

    After reading his post from the sandbox, I'm even more dis-heartened by the way things seem to be going. He was told to shut up because the PtB wanted to keep things they way they've always been, do things behind closed doors and to hell w/ the members.

    Your comments about the ITAC needing to 'align their philosophy' w/ the CRB is pure BS political rhetoric, and in pretty much so many words say that the CRB want the ITAC to do what they're told and not make waves.

    As I've said before, I hate patronage positions. The CRB needs to be made up of folks who represent all areas of Club Racing. I don't think the CRB should be a seperately appointed group, but rather should be made up of the chairs of the various AdHoc's. I know I'll here the "But hey, you're asking people that volunteer to do even more work, it's not fair." My position on volunteering for something has always been that if you're going to do it (volunteer), you do it for the whole job, and all that it entails, not just for the bits and pieces that you want to do. And if there's more work than you bargined for, don't bitch about it, just step down or take a lessor role.

    Each AdHoc chair should be voted on by the members of the respective committee. Chair tenure should be no more than 2-3 years. New AdHoc members are voted in by the current committee. People can apply for positions on an AdHoc, or they can be recruited. Tenure should be formally limited to no more than 5-6 years. Members could be re-elected to a given committee.

    That way you get a CRB that represents all areas of Club Racing, and you take away the political pressure from the BoD on the CRB, and from the CRB on the various AdHoc's.

  8. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjanos View Post
    All of that information is available on the SCCA website.
    yes, but it requires the searcher to be an actual member, and therefor a stakeholder. Of course, there's no protection of that getting spread around to anyone, but it's not a bad idea to have people contacting at least be a member.

    (And yes there are plenty of legit reasons non members (business partners, for example) can reach the boards, but they've probably been given the access anyway.)

    The stakeholding position is one of interest in many matters.
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  9. #349
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    Bill, IMHO you are over-reacting. The CRB has a vision and they need a team that will help them carry that vision out. The members and the ITAC can try and convince them what that vision SHOULD be.

    I don't know anyone who is on the current ITAC who will just 'toe the line'. I know for me, that if they want me to do something that I can't do in good faith, I will follow Kirk out the door. Simple really.

    Whatever, it will all be over in a couple weeks. I am so tired of all of this.
    Last edited by lateapex911; 09-20-2009 at 12:46 PM.
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  10. #350
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    Email sent to BOD and CRB, fully supporting the ITAC's approach.
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  11. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Bettencourt View Post
    Bill, IMHO you are over-reacting. The CRB has a vision and they need a team that will help them carry that vision out. The members and the ITAC can try and convince them what that vision SHOULD be.

    I don't know anyone who is on the current ITAC who will just 'tow the line'. I know for me, that if they want me to do something that I can't do in good faith, I will follow Kirk out the door. Simple really.

    Whatever, it will all be over in a couple weeks. I am so tired of all of this.
    Well Andy, you've got a CRB member that doesn't agree w/ your approach an 'promises that he won't change his mind any time soon'. If that's the CRB's 'vision' for IT, that pretty much flies in the face of everything that you, Darin, Kirk, and the others have worked for for the past 5 or 6 years.

    And honestly Andy, unless you really didn't support Kirk's approach w/ his communication, I'm surprised that you didn't follow him out the door.

  12. #352
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    I respect and support Kirk's decision to leave.

    I also respect and support Andy's decision to stay until it is clear what the CRB wants from us. This is a critical time for IT, and having Andy there as leader (and Jake, Josh, et. al.) is very important for those of us who buy into the process and the idea that repeatability and transparency are the end goals of IT rather than "on the head of a pin" equality.

    I also fully agree that if the CRB wants something different, they are entitled to it. They are "our" boss. But you guys are their boss........
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  13. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Miller View Post
    Well Andy, you've got a CRB member that doesn't agree w/ your approach an 'promises that he won't change his mind any time soon'. If that's the CRB's 'vision' for IT, that pretty much flies in the face of everything that you, Darin, Kirk, and the others have worked for for the past 5 or 6 years.

    And honestly Andy, unless you really didn't support Kirk's approach w/ his communication, I'm surprised that you didn't follow him out the door.
    You know Bill, nothing is as it seems in life. There ARE more factors at play. ONE CRB member is NOT a majority. Just maybe, people are trying to discuss, understand, and come to reasonable conclusions.

    And tell me, if the entire ITAC thinks that Kirk was right, and followed him out the door, would that be good for IT?

    Andy has said things are in play. Things are in play.
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  14. #354
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    "2 weeks from now, there will be a decision made, sides taken and information given" but not communicated on this message board nor made public till they darn well feel like it.

    Openness, and transparency should be the policy of more boards within SCCA. It gets membership involved and feel like they actually have a say and voice is being heard. Sure sounds like we're taking steps backwards lately even if it's just our perception.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gran racing View Post
    "2 weeks from now, there will be a decision made, sides taken and information given" but not communicated on this message board nor made public till they darn well feel like it.

    Openness, and transparency should be the policy of more boards within SCCA. It gets membership involved and feel like they actually have a say and voice is being heard. Sure sounds like we're taking steps backwards lately even if it's just our perception.
    See, Dave, I can't communicate anything until I Know it....

    Right now, I just don't know what I need to know...
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  16. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by gran racing View Post
    "2 weeks from now, there will be a decision made, sides taken and information given" but not communicated on this message board nor made public till they darn well feel like it.

    Openness, and transparency should be the policy of more boards within SCCA. It gets membership involved and feel like they actually have a say and voice is being heard. Sure sounds like we're taking steps backwards lately even if it's just our perception.
    Dave - what the heck are you talking about? Until the debate happens, the decisions are made and the sides are taken - can we tell you the outcome. Right?
    Andy Bettencourt
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  17. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Miller View Post
    ...Your comments about the ITAC needing to 'align their philosophy' w/ the CRB is pure BS political rhetoric, and in pretty much so many words say that the CRB want the ITAC to do what they're told and not make waves. ...
    What Andy describes is actually a very accurate representation of where the ITAC guys are at, Bill. While it does indeed seem clear that the CRB doesn't want people like me getting the members riled up, the fundamental question is whether - or how, we hope - the two philosophies will get resolved.

    I don't want to speak for him but I *think* that when Andy explains that the ITAC and the CRB need to be on the same page, I'm pretty sure he means that the Club organization assumes that the "ITAC" as a BODY is in accord with the CRB's general expectations and philosophies - NOT that the CURRENT ITAC members are being given their marching orders to get in line behind the CRB's CURRENT philosophy.

    The two bodies are not really organized in a true "checks and balances" relationship. And the ITAC has had free rein to constitute itself as the members see fit: They invited ME to participate, for example...

    :026:

    K

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knestis View Post
    And the ITAC has had free rein to constitute itself as the members see fit: They invited ME to participate, for example...

    :026:

    K
    Seemed to be going well for a nice bit there to....
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  19. #359
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    Wow. Sorry to read about your decision to resign Kirk. I thought you brought a valuable element process/proceedure and consistency to the ITAC.

    I am still trying to sift through the last few pages of rubble and put together what happened. I guess it is somewhere between -
    'OMG! Dr. K got booted because they wanted to take weight off an Audi!' and 'The CRB wasn't thrilled that issues they were trying to reach a resolution with the ITAC on were aired out in public, before they were decided'.

    I certainly hope that it does not turn out to be the result of discussion of the potential classing of one car. That discussion did bring some valid points to the surface. Of course that issue continues to spin with the statement above that the car needs 40% hp gains to remain at the current weight. Hopefully there is a continuom between 'where it's at' and 2xx off, and we end up at or near the most right/fair place. I was sort of hoping the discussion might result in some strategies to handle situations like that one - process says car that is perceived as competitive needs to lose a bunch of weight - fairly. Maybe taking steps in stages, as the natural motivation to prove the prep potentail for a power plant is only triggerd when folks think a car is a bit heavy - of course only possible if there is a follow up if/when pertinent data is available.

    Man these discussions are a pain, because all we seem to be able to do is say what we don't like, and never make more than a vague outline of an alternative, often with no way to quantify needed inputs, or verify outputs described. Much like I did above.

    Again - that's why we have an ITAC. It will come down to individuals making decisions about what they think is right, on some level, whether that be process inputs, or building boundary conditions for process factors, or what they want to share and discuss with the membership. As long as they are active participants in the decision making process, and don't just 'process the numbers' (and hopefully communicate with us when they do something that is not apparent in the numbers - like Kirk was kind enough to do for me), I have faith in the system we have.

    Hopefully, and probably, there is a fair amount of over reaction in the past few pages about what this really means to the future of IT, but I do think it would be better off with Kirk's involvement.

    PS - whomever was concerned about whether Peter Keane is on the CRB and helping make decisions about the future of IT. I don't really know him at all, but he is an active ITB racer, and in my book that puts him in a group of folks that I would want involved in those decisions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lateapex911 View Post
    You know Bill, nothing is as it seems in life.
    Jake, you'll excuse me if I find a metric shit-ton of irony in that statement, especially coming from you.

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