Big Picture of IT - Share Your Opinions

[RSI]

whatever happened to just having fun!

parts of this discussion remind me why I HATED high school sports. The boosters seemed to take all the FUN away.

It was a business and folks dreams for their children got in the way of people have a good time.

Folks we are all into racing and Im sure we would all love to win, but at the end of the day, regardless of the rules an regardless if my svelt and aerodynamic brick of a volvo will ever win a race...I'm out there because I LOVE race wheel to wheel.

[tnord]

Travis,

You're doing a damned good job proving my point for me. Sounds like the biggest reason why your car isn't at the front, is the nut behind the wheel.

it IS at the front dingbat. i won my first two races out (and 1st overall) with it in a ~17 car ITA field.

[Bill Miller]

it IS at the front dingbat. i won my first two races out (and 1st overall) with it in a ~17 car ITA field.

So why the hell are you running your mouth? As Chris said, your BS is getting really old. I've watched you piss and moan on this board for years now, and it's always from a me-centric point of view. How about doing us all a favor and buying that BMW and set of clubs? I honestly can't remember one post from you that's been constructive in the slightest bit. I wonder if this board has an 'ignore' list?

[tnord]

because i'm not so arrogant to think that the same thing that has happened to other classes can't happen to IT.

you guys just like to think that you're efforts are so awesome that you can't possibly do any more than you are already, and going national will have no affect on you whatsoever.

[KelleyHux]

As a flagger/registrar/long-time SCCA member (i.e. non-driver), I have just a couple of outside perspectives to suggest for consideration:

I was at Topeka for the first "IT Fests", and the middle of the country location ensured some participation from both the east and west coasts. It was a fun event, and the pursuit race where the guys launched down the front straight based on qualifying times so that all would finish at the same time, was a hoot!

I've been to a couple of ARRC races as a flagger, and they were a couple of the most fun races I've ever been to. Even the ARK in 1999 when it rained 5.5 inches in three days! The competition has been great, and the fields were pretty good. Yes, there's no "qualification" per se, and the participation is a bit slanted to the east coast simply due to the distance, but it's still a good chance for drivers who don't usually race together during the year to get together for an end-of-year event.

As far as IT going national - my suggestion is to talk to the American Sedan drivers. When their class went national, the costs skyrocketed to the point where many of the original drivers are no longer able to actively compete. The class has gone through several development cycles and has been a national class for awhile.

I think talking to those Spec Miata drivers who have been around for awhile will also give you some background about how they are coping with the move to national class status. In MiDiv, Travis is right - we used to have very large SM fields when it was regional only, but once it moved to National class status the fields were large the first year or so and have dropped off since. Part of that could be attributed to the RunOffs location (Heartland Park Topeka) and the difficulties that the local guys had qualifying for the "big show", or they simply outspent their budgets in that first year.

During 2008, a committee appointed by the board of directors examined the concept of removing the designations between "regional" and "national". As I recall, the idea was scrapped, simply because the dynamics of racing are very different across the country. In the "flyover zone" (RMDiv, MiDiv), we are not blessed with population density, so we don't draw the large crowds that other divisions do. Each coast appears to have strong regional racing, and the national racing in the west coast is not as strong as it is along the east coast (probably because of the distance to Runoffs).

Just a few thoughts.

Kelley Huxtable
DMVR
"PLAY SAFE"

[JeffYoung]

Kelley, thanks for the post and perspective. It is appreciated.

[Bill Miller]

because i'm not so arrogant to think that the same thing that has happened to other classes can't happen to IT.

you guys just like to think that you're efforts are so awesome that you can't possibly do any more than you are already, and going national will have no affect on you whatsoever.

But you are arrogant enough to only care about what happens to you. To me, the ONLY reason to not have IT go National, is that Kirk's fear may come to pass, and that is that the rules for IT will get really dorked up. But there's nothing to say that that won't happen anyway. Sure, I think the current group of folks that are on the ITAC will work very hard to prevent that, but Kirk's already hinted around at something that may be coming down from above.

If you're a guy that likes to run at the front, I would think that you would welcome more competition. But maybe you're just one of those guys that likes to be the big fish in the little pond. Nobody makes you spend money except yourself.

During 2008, a committee appointed by the board of directors examined the concept of removing the designations between "regional" and "national".

Interesting. No wonder people keep referring to the SCCA as the Secret Car Club of America. I don't recall seeing anything in Fastrack about that.

[tnord]

But you are arrogant enough to only care about what happens to you. To me, the ONLY reason to not have IT go National, is that Kirk's fear may come to pass, and that is that the rules for IT will get really dorked up. But there's nothing to say that that won't happen anyway. Sure, I think the current group of folks that are on the ITAC will work very hard to prevent that, but Kirk's already hinted around at something that may be coming down from above.

If you're a guy that likes to run at the front, I would think that you would welcome more competition. But maybe you're just one of those guys that likes to be the big fish in the little pond. Nobody makes you spend money except yourself.

you haven't got a damn clue what you're talking about.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Travis, is it possible that there ARE Regional IT programs that are as serious as National programs? If you say yes, then I wonder why you are so persistant that some people may be arrogant? Why are you pressing so hard on something that you don't know about?

We don't have regional sterotypes. We know that a guy like Kip V. won't do ANYTHING different in his IT program if it went National. We also know that if it went National, and it raised the level of the cars in a region, it will have a significant affect.

The issue is prediciting the result of those outcomes at the National and Regional levels. I am confident that boths sides would be 'right' in various parts of the country. What the best thing for IT is - we won't know until it is tested.

[tnord]

many people have been through this many times with you guys. you don't want to believe it, that's fine.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Quote me some posts Travis. You are saying that there are effectively no IT programs that are at National level right now. I submit you are wrong. Nobody has written anything to prove otherwise that I can recall but I look forward to your quotes.

Here is what *I* think a National level program looks like:

- 10/10ths motor program. Thousands in dyno time developing intakes and exhausts. Every legal allowance exploited. Probably have 2 of them
- Optimization of the reduction of rolling resistance
- Extra attention to the rediction of unsprung weight
- Thousands spent on test days gathering data, testing different spring rates, shock settings, bar setting and sizes, develping track specific alignment settings and the never ending quest for the next tenth
- A rediculously expensive tire program. Usually 6 heat cycles or less on a set of DOT R-Comps
- A religeous and PROACTIVE maintence program. Replacing items like hubs, pads, rotors, clutches, plugs, wires, coil packs before they fail. A 'nut and bolt' and a alignment check before every race
- Spares. You can't eliminate every issue. Full spares on suspension, diff, tranny, wheels, tires, you name it - you gotta be ready to replace it at the track

What am I missing?

(Edit - understand that I am being very general in some ares because the application of them is very tedious yet complex)

[tnord]

this has been beaten to death for YEARS, nothing i say now will be any diffferent than what i or anyone else has said before.

i just don't care enough to go through this again.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I don't think you have gone through it once. All we are saying is that SOME regional programs won't change. Not sure why you continue to dispute that.

[Bill Miller]

That's a pretty weak cop-out Travis. Sounds like you're the one that doesn't have a clue. But once again, please do us all a favor and care even less.

[shwah]

Interesting. No wonder people keep referring to the SCCA as the Secret Car Club of America. I don't recall seeing anything in Fastrack about that.

Bill - we had a brazzilion page thread here about that topic when a BoD member asked some IT driver's what they thought about going National. I think this was part of the same 'project'. No notes in Fasttrack were more specific than noting that input on ways to improve club racing was received from a comitee.

[Bill Miller]

Thanks Chris, I must have missed it when I was on hiatus.

Bill - we had a brazzilion page thread here about that topic when a BoD member asked some IT driver's what they thought about going National. I think this was part of the same 'project'. No notes in Fasttrack were more specific than noting that input on ways to improve club racing was received from a comitee.

[IPRESS]

You guys are afraid of missing washer bottles, but embrace changing one of the foundations (shall be a Regional Only Class) of IT.
Yes there are ultimate IT programs already, but even those will find more ways to spend when RO trophy hunters invade a national IT class.

Somewhere in this long thread or the poll thread a person was directed to run a different class from IT if they didn't like the existing prep rules.....oooookaaaaay, that fits here too......pick one of the 24, then refer to Bowie's suggestion.
Justification for not cleaning up a rinky dink rule because of the "Where does the creep end?" thinking and yet beating a drum for total change of a class principle, wOW that baffles me.

But I digress...please continue the Tnord vs MillerMan bout!

[Knestis]

From an entirely academic point of view, rules and costs are only weakly linked.

The ONLY thing that really controls what racing costs is what the most enthuiastic entrant is willing to spend. THAT is influenced by a lot of factors but most of them sort of fall under the heading of "competetive pressure."

A racer will spend what he/she wants to in order to achieve personal competitive goals, considering budget (liquid assets and credit) and other lesser factors like ego. (For example, I refuse to drive or rent out a car that looks like crap so I spend money on real bodywork and paint.) More restrictive - or more open - rules won't change what I want to accomplish, UNLESS it changes my competitive interests or those of the racers around me. Otherwise costs won't change

Similarly, it stands on wobbly logical legs to suggest that "National status" will automagically make it more expensive for any given driver (including one's self), without qualifying the assertion with context about competitiveness.

We have got to set free the idea that we can legislate costs or that spending is DIRECTLY linked to policy decisions. Or at least qualify each of our positions to be clear what it is we think is going to happen.

K

[tnord]

If A then B.
If B then C.

what causes C? B, or A?

[shwah]

Actually I am advocating a total change of the CLUB RACING STRUCTURE, not IT, or IT going national. Yes I would like that. No I don't need it. If I really need to chase that windmill, I have no problem with the fact that it would likely be in a Prod car.