Big Picture of IT - Share Your Opinions

[JeffYoung]

I'm a newcomer to the SCCA and IT (started in 04). I'm opposed to IT going National for this reason:

I can't say I planned on being an IT racer, I kind of fell into it. But in my first year, I unknowningly ran regional weekends and national weekends that had our IT Pro Series "attached" to them.

The regional weekends were far and away the better of the two. Higher car counts, better competition (all around), just more racing. This is all SEDiv, so you understand my geographic perspective.

I'm very happy with IT as it stands now, with informal national championships and hotly contested regional ones. I'm afraid that "going national" would dilute attendance at the regional events, and infuse some of the things we have seen happen to SM when it went national.

I can't for certain say going national wouldn't improve IT. I can say that IT seems healthy, and growing, right now, and I think the risk of going national versus the potential upside (for me, the only upside I see is the ability to go to the Runoffs) is too great.

[gran racing]

I don't believe that eligibility for runoffs participation will change IT much - maybe it gets more competitive and that's a good thing.

Not sure it will be a bad thing for the club, but IT would change. While we can't create rules to reduce costs, we can control some of the perception or "reward" for winning / spending lots of money. There are plenty of guys out there spending a ton of money in other categories. Not saying there aren't some in IT, but not nearly as many people. If we now add in that Runoffs allure, it would become that much more tempting for those other racers to start racing IT. The number of people spending large sums of money grows. As a result of this, people looking to enter IT racing see the average level of prep being higher than it currently is and perceive the barriers to entry being higher or at least the idea of racing in this group more intimidating. That's not worded well but gotta run off to Summit Point in a minute.

Maybe the solution (and again, I personally would rather this not happen because I love where IT is now and where I hope it's going) would be make IT elgible for the Runoffs, and have it less geared to new people. Then create a new category, have less of a "reward" and prestigue if you want to call it that for winning.

I also share much of the same feelings of what Jeff just said.

[IPRESS]

Jeff,
Hang in there, (on the ITAC) you have the correct idea of IT in my opinion. There is no reason for the PTB to push IT towards becoming something it was not setup to be. IT is successful. Please continue to represent the folks who see IT for what it is and are happy with it. No matter what others say, if the Run Offs are involved, "The price of poker" will go way up! (And let me throw this out: For those that say you don't have to spend if you don't want too, that is true now too but most everybody does as much as they can to be competitive. So that is a bad reason to justify Run Offs eligibility.)
SOMETIMES WHAT YOU GOT IS ABOUT AS GOOD AS IT GETS, enjoy it don't change it!

[Andy Bettencourt]

On the IT-going-National idea: My thoughts.

• It won't change in some places. The pointy end efforts are just as robust as any Nationals effort (given rules). Really.
• It will go from night to day in some places. As humans, we prepare and execute to the level of our competition. If you have never driven against a top driver with a true 10-10ths product who goes to 5+ test days, analyzes data every session, and puts tires in the trash after 6 heat cycles - you WILL if someone is running races with a dream of a National Championship
• It will dilute Regional racing (should these two types of events never merge). This is an interesting issue as some think its a bad thing. I am not sure. If the guys who want the best competition move 'up' to a National, it leaves the mid-back packs to race against each other. Could it be that new people win, stay excited and it 'opens' up the door to people who may have seen the 'big dogs' dominate - to give it a go if they were intimidated? In other words, does it 'make room' for more entry level drivers/cars? While Regional monies may suffer, National entries could skyrocket making the regional-pocketbook concern potentially moot.
• IT is just as 'set-up' to be National as any other class.
• I don't think going National would improve IT. I don't think it would hurt IT either. In the end, it would probably help the CLUB as a whole

As I continue to think about it, I am indifferent to the concept. With the ARRC and IT Fest as top National-level events that carry significant clout, the benfit to IT is debatable.

[shwah]

Good final point Andy. IMO current IT has a MORE relevant measuring stick for the top contenders than the National classes, with the IT Fest, ARRC and Improved Touring Driver's Championship.

[Ron Earp]

Jeff,
Hang in there, (on the ITAC) you have the correct idea of IT in my opinion.
SOMETIMES WHAT YOU GOT IS ABOUT AS GOOD AS IT GETS, enjoy it don't change it!

I'll second that. Too many potential downsides to IT being national, not enough upsides (for the dedicated IT racer).

I'm sure Topeka is eying IT hard. Add up all the Prod entries for the year, what do you get, about 1/6th the number of IT entries? IT isn't doing what it was predicted to do, to be a breeding ground for Prod. It is a destination for most of us and "most of us" seem to be far larger in numbers than the Prod folks.

[Jeremy Billiel]

I don't get it. What about the rules is everyone scared of? Do you think the board would all of a sudden open the rules up and make IT National?

[Andy Bettencourt]

I'll second that. Too many potential downsides to IT being national, not enough upsides (for the dedicated IT racer).

I'm sure Topeka is eying IT hard. Add up all the Prod entries for the year, what do you get, about 1/6th the number of IT entries? IT isn't doing what it was predicted to do, to be a breeding ground for Prod. It is a destination for most of us and "most of us" seem to be far larger in numbers than the Prod folks.

IT just may be doing what they want it to do. It's a breeding ground for SCCA Club Racers.

[quadzjr]

I think the ITAC is doing a fine job. It seems to me that the bottle neck is the CRB and instead of dealing the ITAC's recomendations for the last few months they are now asking to prove the new process. That may or may not have very little to do with the recomndations made.

I am just waiting for the weight to be "corrected" on my vehicle. I was told it would be and I trust the person that told me, I do have faith.

About IT going national. Andy makes a bunch of good points, and I think he hit the nail on the head on how it will affect us. Now my question to you is, For an entry level breeding ground do we really want to increase the attendance of people that

top driver with a true 10-10ths product who goes to 5+ test days, analyzes data every session, and puts tires in the trash after 6 heat cycles - you WILL if someone is running races with a dream of a National Championship

Then you have a class that if you want to win, you WILL have to spend money to get on the podium, and for those that already have a 9-10/10th car you will probably have to spend even mroe money than you used to to compete agaisnts a national level effort.

Going national woudl like to have an open invitation for compaines of the likes of speed source, bimmerworld, phenonix, etc.. Which probably would be good for the club, however bad for the typical IT guy.

[JoshS]

Going national woudl like to have an open invitation for compaines of the likes of speed source, bimmerworld, phenonix, etc.. Which probably would be good for the club, however bad for the typical IT guy.

This point has been made by quite a few people over the years, and a few times in this thread. There's no doubt that people will spend crazy money to win The Runoffs and that companies like that with more resources than the "guy with his car" will be playing it for business.

But -- those efforts are going to show up at NATIONAL races, not at REGIONAL races. REGIONAL races is the SCCA's entry level place. All classes at regional events. I agree with Jeff and Andy that making IT eligible for national races is likely to reduce the regional entries a little bit initially with some drivers switching to a national race schedule. The question is, will that effect stick around for a long time? Will new racers come into regionals to take their place?

The big-buck operations are generally going to run national schedules and skip the regional weekends. That's what happens in most classes, at least up and down the west coast.

[quadzjr]

correct. Other than for cheaper testing purposes, there would be no reason for them to run regional.

However, you would be a fool if you didn't think that they wouldn't sell there chassis, whether new or old to regional racers that have the money to aquire the car. Same reason why you see the ex speedsource cars pull more money on re-sale than a standard 2nd gen RX-7, they tend to be, or atleast was, a very well prepped car.

There will be guys that have the money that want to do well, and want to win races. So they will spend the money and (should) do really well at the regional level. Most people if they are doing it for fun and not to further there career, that have no interest in driving to the Run-offs, would rather be in the front of a lesser field, then the rear of a faster one.

[JeffYoung]

It's a little different here in the SEDiv, we get some crossover between Regionals and Nationals in SRF and SM and some of the top dollar/dogs do show up at Regionals on occasion.

The larger issue for me remains dilution. I frankly don't think we will see any extraordinary growth in IT regardless of what we do -- I think retaining racers and gradual growth with new ones should be our goal.

I see "going National" as hurting that goal. For the most part, you split the existing body of IT racers in half -- half go National and half Regional. You end up hurting fields in Regional classes and having a much smaller National IT class than you expected.

I see a lot of risk in this and again, not much upside.

The big-buck operations are generally going to run national schedules and skip the regional weekends. That's what happens in most classes, at least up and down the west coast.

[Z3_GoCar]

I would argue that club racing is really in trouble, look at the number of entries for our Labor day double regional:

https://www.motorsportreg.com/index....DFBE087FB6575A

The single largest group are the workers. As for IT we've got 5 in ITA, 1 in ITB, and that's all . The fact is any racing is super expensive, and only attractive to a small group of people. Alot of those people are gone, either they stopped paying for it or they've gone to NASA/marque/Vintage racing. What we're facing is an implosion of the middle class who might desire to race but simple can't afford it, and no amount of cost containment can stop it.

We also don't run any stand-alone National weekends, they're all held with at least a restricted single regional, otherwise those weekends would be even fewer racer than show up to our regionals. I know that everyone on the ITAC thinks the rule set is iron clad, but make it a National class and wait and see what creative interperatations show up

[Jeremy Billiel]

I know I am being a broken record, but if SCCA eliminates the National/Regional designation and everyone is on the same playing field there is no dolution, no lower prepped cars, its bring your A game and a well prepped car. If you don't then you will loose and have to be ok with that.

[quadzjr]

Is it just me or atleast on this page the big promoters for the national expansion run BMW Z3's in IT? just messin.

[Ron Earp]

I would argue that club racing is really in trouble, look at the number of entries for our Labor day double regional:

https://www.motorsportreg.com/index....DFBE087FB6575A

The single largest group are the workers.

How strong is NASA in So CA? Just a query to see if the strength of a competing organization might have something to do with low SCCA turnout. Other than that I'm not sure - economy bad in So CA? I go there fairly frequently on business and I know our sector (academic research/biotech/pharma) is hurting.

[Knestis]

...The big-buck operations are generally going to run national schedules and skip the regional weekends. That's what happens in most classes, at least up and down the west coast.

Precisely. Look at the differences between the levels of commitment between National and Regional-only Production racers for example.

K

[JoshS]

I would argue that club racing is really in trouble, look at the number of entries for our Labor day double regional:

https://www.motorsportreg.com/index....DFBE087FB6575A

Ouch. Guess they're all coming up here. Meanwhile, we have a double regional this weekend at Infineon with 290+ entries.

[jimmyc]

Dave - can you share why IT going national would be a bad thing? From my NE region perspective I believe consolidating many of the national and regional weekends and letting IT participate on a national level is a good thing. I don't believe that eligibility for runoffs participation will change IT much - maybe it gets more competitive and that's a good thing. I agree with you entirely about racing in a 20 car field vs 5 - that's a key reason I came back to IT. Plus the drivers are a great bunch of psychos to run against. :-)

sounds like, from your posts and from others about the NE region and events, that the region has issues.

Your trying to fix a local problem on a national level.

Doesn't seem to make sense.

[jimmyc]

How strong is NASA in So CA? Just a query to see if the strength of a competing organization might have something to do with low SCCA turnout. Other than that I'm not sure - economy bad in So CA? I go there fairly frequently on business and I know our sector (academic research/biotech/pharma) is hurting.

NASA is pretty strong in SoCal, never been to a SCCA socal race though, but it always seems slim compared to NASA