Big Picture of IT - Share Your Opinions

[JoshS]

If A then B.
If B then C.

what causes C? B, or A?

B. And possibly D (some other factor you aren't yet considering.)

[lateapex911]

I would guess (!) that IF IT were to be a Runoffs elible category that the landscape would certainly change. Some for the better, some for the worse.

It would depend heavily on the racing structure (Regional/National) that exists. IF it remains as is, then I'd bet that we'd see more IT entrants overall. We'd get some from outside the club, and we'd get some from other categories. I bet SM, Prod SS and Touring would be the major donor categories. I think that there are drivers in those categories who are there because they want "National" status (for whatever reason, ego, Ruboffs, whatever) who aren't thriled with the ruleset they live in and would want to try the IT ruleset.

Some of them would think that IT would present an easy and cheap route to the Ruboffs. ("Hey, IT's pretty open...easy pickings, we should be able to win it first year out, those guys don't know what it takes").

The current "top programs" will migrate to National races, and their finite budgets will allow only limited Regional dipping. (All things are finite, to some degree). This means that the lesser desirable Regional events will be less 'competitive', which would encourage mid packers and newbies.

So, for the first few years at least, IT would see bigger numbers, albeit at the expense of other categories. That's fine with me....natural selection. Lets adapt and move on.

That's the upside. The downside is that, the 'top prep' teams will head to Nationals, where they will experience new competitive pressures. Guys like Andy, who is part of a great prep shop, and spends his finite budget successfully might find pressure to spend more. Some of that will be forced travel to the arcane race all over the world rules of Ruboffs qualification, and some will come from increased counts of big spenders. Maybe he can buy more tires to maintain record setting performance at each race, maybe not. But, yea, spending sure won't reduce. More popularity of the program WILL drive up costs for those who wish to remain in the same competitive position as they are now, (that means those who are typically fourth on the grid will go National and try to stay fourth, those in the vast middle will stay regional, and they might see stable costs)

Another downside is the splitting of the brethren. Your pals have gone elsewhere, which sucks. new one fill in though...change is inevitable.

So, sure, some good, some bad. As always.

I'd hesitate though, to change IT's status without seeing a much larger strategic vision, and understanding it.

[JeffYoung]

On a more pleasant note, awesome runs this weekend Mr. Gulick! I heard a track record fell.......

[KelleyHux]

I said: "During 2008, a committee appointed by the board of directors examined the concept of removing the designations between "regional" and "national". <and more...>"

Interesting. No wonder people keep referring to the SCCA as the Secret Car Club of America. I don't recall seeing anything in Fastrack about that.

Bill (and others)
Check the March 2008 FasTrack, page 5:
MOTION:
1. To form a task force composed of two members of the CRB, two members of the Staff, and three Board members, to gather information meet and develop a plan for national racing and its championship. The task force shall submit its results by March 31.
2. At its May meeting, or earlier, the Board of Directors will select one plan, to be implemented effective with the next Fastrack publication.
a. Selection of any plan will require at least nine affirmative votes of the Board of Directors.
b. The Board of Directors will publish the plan, with a full explanation of the goals and reasons, and will commit to the essence of the program for three years.
(Jones/Christian) PASSED Unanimous

And, the June 2008 FasTrack, page 5:
(Note - Members are also encouraged to read the Club Racing Task Force Summary in the June Fastrack following the Board Minutes on page 6.)

June 2008 FasTrack, page 6:
The Board discussed whether or not to retain the current Club Racing program which provides for the Regional and National racing structure as compared to a program that would involve "just races." The latter would involve all races being equal but having Divisional Championships, a national points system or a combination thereof to select Runoffs entrants. While a change to the traditional Regional/National race concept had some support, the Board voted it would be best for the program to retain the current system.

(both FasTracks are available in full text by going to www.scca.com, selecting "Club Racing" at the top, then choosing "FasTrack News" on the left hand side)

Kelley Huxtable
DMVR
"PLAY SAFE"

[Bill Miller]

Thanks Kelly.

[Knestis]

If A then B.
If B then C.

what causes C? B, or A?

A = [Whatever change in IT]
B = Increased competitiveness
C = Increased costs to run up front

You are clearly of the opinion that C is bad but you predicate the cause-effect action that gets us there on the awful mediating outcome of greater competitiveness. IT'S RACING for Pete's sake! It's SUPPOSED to be competitive. Shouldn't the Club be trying to improve the competitiveness of its racing categories...??

SO, Spec Miata got expensive to run up front because it was SUCCESSFUL.

You want to argue the logic of the deal, argue the WHOLE logic. Don't jump to the awful conclusion with scare tactics about ruining the category. It's intellectually dishonest and you're smarter than that, Travis.

I wish that this thinking were actually rare but evidence suggests that there are a lot of others out there who are more concerned about their individual competitive positions than the health and viability of the category. I've understood that for ages but being reminded of it so vividly in the middle of all of the other silliness is just one more reason to say WTF.

K

[Bill Miller]

Careful Kirk, or Travis will tell you that you don't have a damned clue what you're talking about.

[tnord]

A = [Whatever change in IT]
B = Increased competitiveness
C = Increased costs to run up front

You are clearly of the opinion that C is bad but you predicate the cause-effect action that gets us there on the awful mediating outcome of greater competitiveness. IT'S RACING for Pete's sake! It's SUPPOSED to be competitive. Shouldn't the Club be trying to improve the competitiveness of its racing categories...??

1) for 90%+ of us, this is a HOBBY. not a job. there's only so much money and time people are willing to throw at a hobby to remain competitive.
2) i never said competition is bad. refer back to my previous comments re regional "racing" with fewer than 3 cars per class being a joke.

SO, Spec Miata got expensive to run up front because it was SUCCESSFUL.

spec miata was hugely successful BEFORE it went national, yet it was still very competitive (kinda like current IT, no?). now it's national, and with decreasing levels of competiton compared to a 2006 baseline. is it any coincidence that attendence at the REGIONAL ONLY SM derivative classes has surpassed SM?

I wish that this thinking were actually rare but evidence suggests that there are a lot of others out there who are more concerned about their individual competitive positions than the health and viability of the category. I've understood that for ages but being reminded of it so vividly in the middle of all of the other silliness is just one more reason to say WTF.

K

i'm so fucking sick of this of this argument. why is it that anyone who is against increasing costs to maintain the same finishing position as a result of going national is being "me centric?" did i miss something? is spending more money good for racing at any level? fuck, even just about everyone involved with F1 recognizes that costs to compete are way out of control. look at the natural life cycle of ANY of the major pro series over the years......someone creates a class....some grassroots people think it's a good idea....lots of racers join the fun....it attracts some media attention.....mfgs and suppliers get involved and bring a whole nother level of prep and expense.....the grassroots guys are driven out.....class dies. IE....World Challenge, Trans Am, IMSA Group C, etc.....

Travis
-who is headed back to the golf store to get fitted for his new set of Pings on Thursday.

[Knestis]

>> ...someone creates a class....some grassroots people think it's a good idea....lots of racers join the fun....it attracts some media attention.....mfgs and suppliers get involved and bring a whole nother level of prep and expense.....the grassroots guys are driven out.....class dies. IE....World Challenge, Trans Am, IMSA Group C, etc.....

I am 100% with you there, Travis. The problem for those grassroots guys/gals however, is that they wanted to be more competitive - and could be until their series of choice got healthy - than they could afford. I heard some REALLY good advice a long time ago: "Pick the type of racing that you can afford to do as well as the best effort likely to show up." That might mean slot car drag racing rather than RC cars, rather than an IT car, but we pretty much always go the opposite route, reaching up a level rather than down - an "eyes are bigger than our stomach" kind of dynamic.

...so the solution - for anyone who keeps doing this - is to decide "I want to be as competitive and have as much fun racing as I can for [$whatever]" rather than "I'm willing to spend whatever it takes to be at the front." For the first guy, NOTHING changes. Every class will eventually attract a few of the latter but most of them will go somewhere else in short order. In the meantime though, we can't eliminate them (except possibly with a claim $$ rule) and we can't make policies to prevent their influence.

K

[Bill Miller]

i'm so fucking sick of this of this argument. why is it that anyone who is against increasing costs to maintain the same finishing position as a result of going national is being "me centric?" did i miss something? is spending more money good for racing at any level? fuck, even just about everyone involved with F1 recognizes that costs to compete are way out of control. look at the natural life cycle of ANY of the major pro series over the years......someone creates a class....some grassroots people think it's a good idea....lots of racers join the fun....it attracts some media attention.....mfgs and suppliers get involved and bring a whole nother level of prep and expense.....the grassroots guys are driven out.....class dies. IE....World Challenge, Trans Am, IMSA Group C, etc.....

Travis,

I think you need to relax man. You're comparing IT w/ F1 and other pro classes? WTF dude? And I imagine even the top IT efforts wouldn't get more than 2-3 weekends in WC or GAC with their entire yearly IT budget. Talk about comparing apples to bowling balls.

And even if IT doesn't go National. What happens when a top-tier effort shows up in your area? You want to stay where you are on the grid, either pony up some more money, or figure out how to improve the nut behind the wheel. So, one more time (try and keep up), if you're against change because of the impact it may have on you, you're me-centric. You either don't see, don't want to see, or don't give a damned about the big picture. The more I read your posts, the more I am convinced that I hit the nail on the head when I said you like to be the big fish in the little pond.

Now go get those new clubs!

/edit

Kirk and I were typing at the same time. One thing I'll add to Kirk's comment. Sometimes it's that the series becomes so successful, that guys (and gals) that got in early, can no longer afford it. And sometimes it's that the series becomes so successful, that it attracts folks that are just better racers.

The SM folks got sold a bill of goods. It was going to be a spec series, and it was going to let it come down to driver ability, rather than who had the bigger check book. What's one thing that you see in all the other spec series in SCCA Club Racing? Sealed motors. They should have gone that route from the start. $1500 - $2000 crate motors from Mazda rather than $6000 - $8000 'pro' motors from (fill in your favorite engine shop).

You say you're already spending a bunch of money, and you're one of the guys at the front, in your area. If you're doing that w/o a top-tier effort, you're skating by. You say you don't want to spend more money to maintain your current position, but you say you already are spending lots of money. What I'm reading between the lines here, is that you don't want IT to become more popular, and attract better drivers to your area. We've all seen guys that throw tons of money at a car, and still end up in the middle of the pack. By the same token, you see folks that can just drive the wheels off of what they have. Where it gets dicey, is when you've got someone that can drive the wheels off the car and has a bigger budget than you do.

[tnord]

And even if IT doesn't go National. What happens when a top-tier effort shows up in your area? You want to stay where you are on the grid, either pony up some more money, or figure out how to improve the nut behind the wheel. So, one more time (try and keep up), if you're against change because of the impact it may have on you, you're me-centric. You either don't see, don't want to see, or don't give a damned about the big picture. The more I read your posts, the more I am convinced that I hit the nail on the head when I said you like to be the big fish in the little pond.

fine bill, you successfully baited me into it....

you haven't read a god damn thing have you?

there is a certain someone in our division who is a multi-time runoffs champ with a 90% ITA Miata build. same suspension as in the Prather prod cars, motor by prather, ECU by megasuirt, many hours on the dyno, tires by hoosier. He also turned laps on par (slightly quicker in some sessions) with Cefalo and Hoppe at IT Fest. i qualified P1 in front of him my first race out in 2yrs with a new car i'd never even driven out of the driveway. i admit i had nothing for him in the race, but i was only a couple seconds behind on the last lap when he got taken out by an ITR BMW and took first in an ~17 car ITA field and first overall. i know i have plenty of room to improve in driving, and my car still has a solid 5hp to go....but i feel pretty damn good about that result.

guess who wasn't planning on attending the ARRC and IT Fest until next year but is now giving serious consideration to the ARRC this year? me. not quite too sure how all that fits into your "big fish in small pond" theory.

what i'm talking about is obviously so far over your head you're completely missing it, because the only issues i'm bringing up are issues that affect everyone in the class and the health of the category as a whole. i don't know how to dumb down what i'm saying anymore so you can understand it, but i couldn't care less. if you're so damned smart, why don't you explain to us all how exactly it will all go down if someone waved a wand tomorrow and said "IT is now a national class."

by the way, what do you drive anyway? i did some searching on mylaps and the only thing i could find for "Bill" or William Miller was some ITO/STO/whatever contraption that was 5s slower than an ITA car. tell me that's not you?

[Knestis]

... They should have gone that route from the start. $1500 - $2000 crate motors from Mazda rather than $6000 - $8000 'pro' motors from (fill in your favorite engine shop). ...

Sorry, Bill - that won't help much.

If I have an annual engine budget for two $8000 engine builds, that buys me EIGHT $2000 crate engines that I can dyno - the six weakest of which I can sell essentially new for very close to the prevailing rate. At which point I STILL HAVE maybe $10K that I can spend on more engine shopping - or something else to make me go fast.

That was standard practice among the serious types in "stock" karting when we were doing that.

K

[lateapex911]

On a more pleasant note, awesome runs this weekend Mr. Gulick! I heard a track record fell.......

yes, I was very fortunate, and even though it wasn't 50 degrees, sticker tires etc etc., I got almost a half second under the existing record on my last day. Never been there before, neat track. Scored a couple wins too. Had an awesome crew guy...that makes a huge difference.

[shwah]

Sorry, Bill - that won't help much.

If I have an annual engine budget for two $8000 engine builds, that buys me EIGHT $2000 crate engines that I can dyno - the six weakest of which I can sell essentially new for very close to the prevailing rate. At which point I STILL HAVE maybe $10K that I can spend on more engine shopping - or something else to make me go fast.

That was standard practice among the serious types in "stock" karting when we were doing that.

K

This happens today in SRF. Class seems healthy in my division, regionaly and nationaly.

[tnord]

actually, i heard it used to happen, but now enterprises doesn't put out motors with more than a 2hp difference.

[lawtonglenn]

.
.


we could always take an idea from NC Dirt Track Racing rules:

http://www.ncdirtracing.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=4753

"23.ENGINE BUYOUT -Anyone in the top FIVE may buy the winning engine for $1000 without carb,
headers, front accessories or dist. Any driver refusing to sell will lose all points for the
evening and car plus driver will be banned for 4 weeks. After 4 weeks he/she will be able to
return. If they refuse to sell again they will be done for that racing season. If the winning
motor is claimed by more the one driver, then it will be awarded to the car farthest back."




.

[IPRESS]

So what is actually broke about IT?

Not much if anything that I can tell. And as things are, IT is helping the club plenty just like it is without cluttering up the RunOffs.
So as a betting man I would probably say the only thing that is going to change (any time soon) about things in this thread is if Travis' "sweethart" Ping deal falls through and he is forced to deal with the devil yours truly!
I really don't think IT is going to be a national class in today's grand scheme. It would be tough to push that through even if we were all for it. The PTB is pretty sick of us anyway, "dang bunch of rabble rousing no it alls"

[Bill Miller]

Kirk,

Believe me, I understand that people buy tons of 'spec' motors to find the sweetest ones. Went on in SRF for years, and Enterprises advertised those w/in 2 hp for as long as I can remember (since the switch from Renault). Point I was trying to make, was that everyone didn't have to spend that kind of $$$, not to mention, you wouldn't (hopefully) find ones that were cheated up, but not caught due to no tear down.

Travis,

Bring your game to the ARRC this year, be interesting to see how you do. And if you've got an ITA Miata w/ a Prather Prod suspension under it, how come you aren't writing paper?

[tnord]

Kirk,

Believe me, I understand that people buy tons of 'spec' motors to find the sweetest ones. Went on in SRF for years, and Enterprises advertised those w/in 2 hp for as long as I can remember (since the switch from Renault). Point I was trying to make, was that everyone didn't have to spend that kind of $$$, not to mention, you wouldn't (hopefully) find ones that were cheated up, but not caught due to no tear down.

go ahead and ask the guys out in your area about how their whole sealed motor program is going.

[shwah]

There are some sealed motors in other places in SCCA. If you want to run World Challenge in a 1.8t powered VW/Audi you can run a sealed Mahle power plant, thus you could run that in DP as well.