Removing the Horn and Hood Latches (and minimum rollcage tubing sizes...)

[NWIT]

I am preparing a Volvo 240 for ITB (yeah, another Volvo!). My plan is to reduce weight as much as possible then add back weight to meet minimum requirements, or better yet, have the Competition Board reduce the weight.

I am trying to get my hands around the rules and various interpretations. In removing items from the car I am not sure whether I can take out the horn and hood latches. This seems trivial but I do not want to be challenged as having an illegal car.

Also is it my understanding the new car weight/roll bar diameter requqirements beginning 1/1/10 will be based on the car weight with driver?

Thanks for your time in advance.

NWIT

[JoshS]

Hood latches yes (9.1.3.D.8.e). Horn no (not mentioned, so it must remain as originally equipped.)

Weights are always "with driver."

[tom91ita]

I am preparing a Volvo 240 for ITB (yeah, another Volvo!). My plan is to reduce weight as much as possible then add back weight to meet minimum requirements, or better yet, have the Competition Board reduce the weight.

I am trying to get my hands around the rules and various interpretations. In removing items from the car I am not sure whether I can take out the horn and hood latches. This seems trivial but I do not want to be challenged as having an illegal car.

Also is it my understanding the new car weight/roll bar diameter requqirements beginning 1/1/10 will be based on the car weight with driver?

Thanks for your time in advance.

NWIT

if you mean horn as in horn button, yes (any steering wheel, etc.)

if you mean horn as in the device that makes the noise, no.

hood latch, i pulled and replaced with hood pins.

[RacerBill]

Ditto Tom's reply, exactly.

[NWIT]

I caught the regs on the hood latches - should have looked a little closer at the rule book! Now to find a replacement horn.

Regarding weight, depending on whether the vehicle weight was with or without driver was the difference between a 1.75" and 1.5" diameter cage. I contacted John Bauer of the SCCA and his response to my question was as follows:

The BoD approved language that is going to specify “with driver” as of 1/1/10. I might also suggest that you go with the larger tubing. You never know when weight might be added to your car or your car gets reclassified to a slower class with added weight. It would be a lot of work to have to redo the whole cage.

Unless I am completely mistaken, if the proposed rules for 1/1/10specify the car weight will be "with driver" then one would assume current vehicle weight rules exclude the driver.

Walt

[JoshS]

Unless I am completely mistaken, if the proposed rules for 1/1/10specify the car weight will be "with driver" then one would assume current vehicle weight rules exclude the driver.

Ahh, don't assume.

From the 2009 GCR:

9.3.48. WEIGHT
All cars shall meet or exceed the minimum weight specified with driver, exactly as they come off the race circuit, at the conclusion of a race or qualifying session.

[joeg]

The IT rule has always been ...with Driver.

Read the ITCS of the GCR.

[NWIT]

The GCR defines vehicle weight with driver and the IT rules establish a minimum weight. Therefore weight requirements automatically are based on vehilce weight with driver. My e-mail to the SCCA was for clarification, and while I understand about assuming, John Bauer's comments do not make sense otherwise. Why specify "with driver" if that is not currently the case?

In any event, illegal cage unless the minimum vehicle weight drops.

[joeg]

there is (was) a class where weight was without driver-- Formula S

[Spinnetti]

The IT rule has always been ...with Driver.

Read the ITCS of the GCR.

Huh? Weight with driver is a "recent" rule change ain't it? When I started it was car only.

[Eagle7]

Seems to me that this discussion is mixing two different issues - cage weight rules and spec-line minimum weight rules.

[joeg]

I think you are correct, Marty.

[Andy Bettencourt]

"Improved Touring roll cage tubing size are to be calculated based on the published vehicle weight minus 180lbs."

[Greg Amy]

"Improved Touring roll cage tubing size are to be calculated based on the published vehicle weight minus 180lbs."

From memory, doesn't that only apply to the grandfathered 2007 rules? IIRC, all cars registered 1/1/08 onwards use measurements based on published weight.

Weight also includes that of the horn and hood latches (if installed).

[Andy Bettencourt]

From memory, doesn't that only apply to the grandfathered 2007 rules? IIRC, all cars registered 1/1/08 onwards use measurements based on published weight.

Weight also includes that of the horn and hood latches (if installed).

A quick look only uncovers reference to 1/1/08 in the Touring class. I pulled my quote from the 09 GCR.

[dickita15]

But Andy where in the GCR? I am pretty sure it is from one of the roll cage appendixes for older cars. With the GCR having three different sets of cage rules depending on log book date we all need to be very careful when quoting rules.

[Greg Amy]

Dick's correct (I'm looking at the '09 GCR now).

- If your car was registered prior to 1/1/08 your car is subject to the rollcage rules in "Appendix G. 2007 Roll Cage Rules" (p GCR 147). There you'll find references to different weight classes and the note that IT cars subtract 180 pounds to determine tubing size.

- If your car was registered 1/1/08 or later, your car is subject to GCR 9.4 "ROLL CAGES FOR GT AND PRODUCTION BASED CARS" (p GCR 88). Therein is a list of weights and rollcage tubing sizes, with no 180# exemption for IT cars; ergo, rollcage tubing size is dependent on classified weight (i.e., with driver, horn, and hood latches - if installed).

Note that there are some distinct and tricky differences in wording with the new rules, especially in regard to optional tubing; it's best you read those new rules carefully if you are building/built a new car after 1/1/08...

GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

True Dat.

[jumbojimbo]

So to answer this question "Also is it my understanding the new car weight/roll bar diameter requqirements beginning 1/1/10 will be based on the car weight with driver? "

The answer is the published weight of the car. Period. Whether published weight includes Driver/No Driver is irrelevant to the cage and the weight of the actual car is irrelevant. That second part doesn't make a lot of sense but that's a whole other can of worms.