September Fastrack

[xr4racer]

I thought there was supposed to be some IT changes coming?

matt

[rx7chris]

I got one of the ones I was asking for. Now if I could get them to say 1/2" is ok I"d be all set.

[GTIspirit]

2. IT – Allow a wide band 02 sensor (Bader). A wide band sensor functions differently than a narrow band sensor.

What does this mean? It's allowed, or not? Allowed only if used as a "gauge" and not as an input to the ECU?

[Greg Amy]

Allowed only if used as a "gauge" and not as an input to the ECU?

Correct.

But, given it can be added as a gauge, and the ECU is free, and wiring/connections to the ECU are free, it's gonna be damn hard to police, especially if a narrow-band ECU is also installed.

[Knestis]

Some items referred to the Board by the ITAC have been acted on but recommendations for weight changes on review - going back several months now - are on hold. You might want to check with your Board member for more information on this.

K

[seckerich]

Kirk is being politically correct because he has to deal with the comp board. I can be a little more open but respectful. There is a prevailing attitude on the comp board that the ITAC is doing too much and is always wanting something. I thought that was why we had the ITAC was to do this leg work for them so all they needed to do was vote? They miss the point that they did nothing with IT for many years and just used the "non competitive, tough noogie" clause. Now the comp board is looking at a "rules season" where future changes only happen during a set time period and then are static for the entire year. Good thing so you can build a car to a set target. Aimed more at some other classes that jerk with weights and specs almost weekly. I would guess all IT related changes are on hold until that time. Just a guess.

[tom91ita]

Correct.

But, given it can be added as a gauge, and the ECU is free, and wiring/connections to the ECU are free, it's gonna be damn hard to police, especially if a narrow-band ECU is also installed.

hey chuck, if you are reading this, all the O2 sensors i have seen are only about 13/16" across. that seems pretty narrow to me.

given tGA's comments above, what is the basis for it not being allowed?

[jdrago1]

I don't read the IT forum much.. But you guys are extremely fortunate two have two of the CRB members racing in IT. Jake's post above seems to touch on some of the issues. Believe it or not guys, the CRB wants what is best for your class! This is a work in progress. If the new process works and works for all, I think I can speak for the CRB that we will have no problem putting it into effect. While looking at the new process we also have to take into consideration that you have a pretty good ruleset now and to reschuffle the entire deck could end up with a season or two of growing pains until it sorts itself out. We have to weigh the upside vs downside there.

Steve
The following statement is just not true.

There is a prevailing attitude on the comp board that the ITAC is doing too much and is always wanting something


Hope that helps
Jim Drago
CRB
[email protected]

[Bill Miller]

Correct.

But, given it can be added as a gauge, and the ECU is free, and wiring/connections to the ECU are free, it's gonna be damn hard to police, especially if a narrow-band ECU is also installed.

Greg,

The way I read FT, there was a request to allow a wide-band O2 sensor and it was not approved by the CRB. I didn't see any qualifications on there to the effect of 'only allowed if used as a gauge'. I understand that gauges are free, but here it would seem that you've had a specific request to allow a specific item, that has not been approved. I would think that since it explicitly addresses a wide-band O2 sensor, that you're not allowed to use one, period, not even as a gauge. Therefore, I'm not so sure your contention that it (W-B O2 sensor) is allowed as a gauge is correct.

I'm also not so sure how it would be hard to police, even if allowed. You've got wire(s) from the W-B O2 sensor going to some gauge, if you've got wires going from anything that the W-B O2 sensor is connected to (gauge, data-logger, etc.) going to the ECU, that's pretty much a no-no. Not to mention that this was expressly mentioned in one of the CoA rulings:

The Court reminds everyone that per GCR 9.1.7.D. “No permitted component/
modification shall additionally perform a prohibited function.”

If the use of a W-B O2 sensor was not approved (again, this is moot if that means it's not allowed at all, which is my interpretation), having it send a signal to the ECU would clearly be a prohibited function. Hard to police? I don't really think so. Cheating? Most definitely.

[seckerich]

Unless the rule on gauges is changed then a wide band O2 is OK. It is not OK to use a wide band O2 (4 or 5 wire) in place of a narrow band(2 or 3 wire) to feed a signal to the ECU. There is no rule that allows this addition of wire to that specific sensor. The opinion in fastrack that it is not going to be allowed for the ECU has no bearing on gauge rules.

[Greg Amy]

First, you know this is just a mental exercise, right?

I understand that gauges are free, but here it would seem that you've had a specific request to allow a specific item, that has not been approved.

Roffe Corollary: "If it says you can, you bloody well can!" Gauges are free, my wide-band sensor ports to a gauge, thus it is free. Disagree? All of my cars run wideband gauges with outputs ported to data logging, you'll just be risking $25 to find out its legality.

Furthermore, ECUs are free, including their wiring.

Additionally, data acquisition is allowed (nothing more than gauges that write info to to a card; there's no limitation on "gauges are free" that indicate I have to look at the data in real-time.)

Finally, it just so happens that my ECU is also my data logger, thus (legal) wires are feeding "gauge" data to my (legal and open) ECU through (legal and open) wiring.

ERGO, since my (legal) data logger in inside my (legal) ECU, and everything inside that ECU is free, take your best shot at proving they don't interface - or even more importantly, prove to me how that would be illegal in the first place.

Damn, I love these rules games...

“No permitted component/modification shall additionally perform a prohibited function.”

See discussion above. What "prohibited function" to you suggest such an arrangement is doing? Feeding the (free) ECU air/fuel ratio info? A/F sensor came with the car stock. Replacing the narrow-band with a wide-band for better info? Nope, narrow-band is still there and wired up, but it's being ignored just like the MAF in the Miata that's being ignored because I'm using a (legal) TPS/MAP system.

Then, after all is said and done, if you still want to insist it's illegal and a prohibited function, my response is "fine, prove it's being done."



GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

Not going to go back and forth with you Bill on an issue that we disagree on. My ECU had an on-board MAP sensor (allowed) and required vacuum to operate...see George R. corrolarry. Did it through an existing hole in the housing. Some agree with the application, you don't no issues.

This is about adding a sensor specifically not allowed...by nature of only listing what IS allowed.

Chuck's letter asked the CRB to allow WB's because they did the 'same thing' as NB's...

[Bill Miller]

Not going to go back and forth with you Bill on an issue that we disagree on. My ECU had an on-board MAP sensor (allowed) and required vacuum to operate...see George R. corrolarry. Did it through an existing hole in the housing. Some agree with the application, you don't no issues.

This is about adding a sensor specifically not allowed...by nature of only listing what IS allowed.

Chuck's letter asked the CRB to allow WB's because they did the 'same thing' as NB's...

Fair enough Andy, we'll continue to agree to disagree on that subject.

Just so I understand your position, you feel that a W-B O2 sensor is not allowed at all, or just not allowed to be connected to the ECU?

[raffaelli]

LOL....Someone have a binky for Mr Baker? (COA Appeal):026:

[frnkhous]

all right bill, why don't we make what greg is saying simple... take a motec computer and dash unit. Wire the wideband into the ecu/one data logger. Connect it to the dash/other data logger. Nothing illegal I can see as it is being used to provide gauges and is simply tied into the datalogger(the ecu's have one as well as the dash) The datalogger/ecu is simply the wideband control device for the dash display. No where in the rules does it say the open ecu can't be tied to the open gauges. Now police using the wideband o2 for tunning the car.. yeah not that easy. Now if your argument is that none of it is legal because you can't add a sending unit, then nobody with any datalogger is legal as all of them I know of either need a gps signal or a beacon, neither one of which is specifically allowed to be added. Now we just put ourselves in a nascar situation where you have the stuff and disconnect/remove it before the race. Steve is already doing that with the o2. It is pretty much a lost cause... IT rules are full of grey areas.. I'm still not sure that the mosers should have been dq'd The crx has a box in that area.. you are allowed to modify, remove, or replace.. if you cut a hole in that box are you still illegal? What makes that rule less important than the one that says you have to draw air from the engine bay unless it had another factory source(the box outside the engine bay).

[Bill Miller]

all right bill, why don't we make what greg is saying simple... take a motec computer and dash unit. Wire the wideband into the ecu/one data logger. Connect it to the dash/other data logger. Nothing illegal I can see as it is being used to provide gauges and is simply tied into the datalogger(the ecu's have one as well as the dash) The datalogger/ecu is simply the wideband control device for the dash display. No where in the rules does it say the open ecu can't be tied to the open gauges. Now police using the wideband o2 for tunning the car.. yeah not that easy. Now if your argument is that none of it is legal because you can't add a sending unit, then nobody with any datalogger is legal as all of them I know of either need a gps signal or a beacon, neither one of which is specifically allowed to be added. Now we just put ourselves in a nascar situation where you have the stuff and disconnect/remove it before the race. Steve is already doing that with the o2. It is pretty much a lost cause... IT rules are full of grey areas.. I'm still not sure that the mosers should have been dq'd The crx has a box in that area.. you are allowed to modify, remove, or replace.. if you cut a hole in that box are you still illegal? What makes that rule less important than the one that says you have to draw air from the engine bay unless it had another factory source(the box outside the engine bay).

And no where in the rules does it say that you can tie open gauges to an open ECU, which is waaaayyyyy more important. Remember, IIDSYC.YC.


I also agree w/ Kirk's take, there's nothing in the rules that prohibits a W-B O2 sensor. But there's also nothing in the rules that allows you to connect it to the ECU. Just because the ECU is open, doesn't mean you can connect it to whatever you want to. Otherwise there would have been no need for the language about the new MAP and TPS sensors, and their wiring. You could have just as easily installed MAP and TPS sensors and sent the data to 'gauges'.

[Knestis]

There is NO specific prohibition against "wide band O2 sensors" anywhere in the rules. The response published in Fastrack should NOT be interpreted as being such a prohibition.

K

[Duc]

Other existing sensors, excluding the stock air
metering device, may be substituted for equivalent units.

How are they not equivalent? So changing a preasure or temperature transducer that has a different operating range (aka using GM sensors that are common in aftermarket ECUs) is not equivalent?

And while there:

The engine management computer may be altered or
replaced.

But how do you wire it to the vehicle? Using the original ecu connectors? Or in the "replacement" of the engine management computer (EMC) the connections are allowed to change?


Derek
Wanting to know before the stock ecu ends up in the trash can.

[JeffYoung]

My personal understanding of our recommendation was that:

1. You can install a wideband 02 sensor. Exhaust is free, gauges are free.

2. You cannot use it to send engine management signals to the ECU. The ITAC believes you can only do that through the use of the stock sensors, and the two allowed additions (TPS and MAP).

3. You can use it to send data to gauges or a data logger.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Just so I understand your position, you feel that a W-B O2 sensor is not allowed at all, or just not allowed to be connected to the ECU?

Not allowed to be connected to the ECU.