MARRS ITB/ITC say hello to ITS

[chewy8000]

Nice another group change with absolutely no input from the drivers. This format worked well at NJ on Thunderbolt (long straights) but I see this being a real problem at Summit Point. I've discussed this with a few people and decided to either bag the rest of the WDCR season or head for the PRO-IT series at New jersey and maybe finish with the ARRC. Not a good way to increase numbers when their already low in our region? I wouldn't be surprised if MARRS 7 is light. Sorry guys but I don't agree with this format.

[mlytle]

no input from drivers? huh? the club racing committee that made this decision is made up of the DRIVERS REPS FROM EACH CLASS. you elected the folks that are making these calls!

[jjjanos]

I've discussed this with a few people and decided to either bag the rest of the WDCR season

I concur. I think the MARRS ITB drivers need to consider staying home for the rest of the year.

[dave parker]

While I am glad that the ITB/ITS grouping works for other regions racing programs it has been proven here in WDC that it DOES NOT work. The last year that I raced in ITB we were grouped with ITS. You did not have to worry about the front running ITS cars, but the under-developed/poorly driven ITS cars were a HUGE problem. If anyone doubts me on this I would be happy to provide video evidence of the clusterf#ck that went on all season.
The following year ITS was grouped with ITC and as Mr. Janoska has said that was the beginning of the death of ITC in WDCR. The final nail in ITC's coffin in WDCR was being grouped with SpecRX7.
The really sad part about this whole disaster is that it has been foisted upon ITB/ITC with no input from the drivers that race in that group.
cheers
dave parker

[lateapex911]

Sounds like it isn't the CLASS that's the issue, it's selfish drivers. They need to have a chat with a Steward, or from fellow competitors.

I've seen backmarker ITX drivers duking it out with front running ITZ drivers here in our area, and the drivers were given some ribbing (talking to) about the way they handled themselves. That problem corrected itself.

Simple rule, if you aren't running for the front trophies, don't insert yourselves into other class cars that are. Suck it up, drop back and carry on. Od get on the stick and get ahead of the battle.

[gran racing]

I have never seen an ITB keep up even with the slowest ITS car noway! running ITS with ITA is a close match but ITB lol someone is dreaming!

Visit momentum tracks then and you'll see it. Lime Rock is one prime example and the front running ITB cars are running with cars in the top 2/3 in ITS. Mid Ohio can be tough as there are few passing zones, and the best are on long straights. Often times the challenge is a result of less experienced drivers (many times also back markers) .

I say just group them together with SM then.

[jjjanos]

The really sad part about this whole disaster is that it has been foisted upon ITB/ITC with no input from the drivers that race in that group.

Another sad thing about this is that, AFAIK, every class that has requested a mid-year group change has been told...

Groups are set at the start of the year. We will revise at the start of the new year.

Tradition and precedent say this should have been rejected as soon as it came up.

I want a split start and it better be in the GD supps.

[lateapex911]

I want a split start and it better be in the GD supps.

:026::026::026::026:

I just had to quote that and add a bit of emphasis..

One question. Not one guy who's bitching has mentioned actually discussing the issue with the "perps". Or having the driver rep have a chat with them. Or a Steward.

Has that happened?

Maybe they should put ITA in with ITB instead?

[jjjanos]

yes, there are some new drivers in its this year. the class is rebuilding. if any itb driver has an issue with an its driver, see me and bring your video. i will work with the its driver if they are the issue. my contact info is on the dcregion site.

There's a couple of important principles that have been violated here and that's the major reason my dander is up.
1. Group changes were requested multiple times in the past and everyone was told to suck it up. This time, they weren't.
2. This was an ambush without time to get driver input.
3. There's no significant increase in safety. Fast Big-bore group to slowest ITS time: About 19 seconds/lap. Fast ITS time to slowest ITB/ITS time: About 13 seconds/lap.
All this has done is dumped the problem on another class.

So, please excuse me if I am just not feeling the love here. Had we started the year with the class, ex-post facto discussions would be great. Given the way this was ambushed on us and shoved down our throats, I'm not certain I feel like talking. I'd rather file the paper on make the stewards work - especially since I have a strong hunch that their hands were all over this move too.

Since you are aware of the issue - at least with some of last year's drivers - shouldn't there be some a-priori discussions with the slower drivers in the class from their DR?

I just had to quote that and add a bit of emphasis..

One question. Not one guy who's bitching has mentioned actually discussing the issue with the "perps". Or having the driver rep have a chat with them. Or a Steward.

Has that happened?

My understanding is that last year drivers were approached. Things did not improve last year.

The timing of this and the way it was done, however, simply leaves me unmotivated to discuss this after the fact.

As for the stewards...

Let's go to the tape...http://www.vimeo.com/2097173

No action taken. IIRC, there was an investigation by the operating steward who determined that an RFA wasn't justified. Could be wrong though.

Several incidents this year and the resulting penalties could leave one with the impression that going through the stewards will be about as useful as breasts on a boar.

[chewy8000]

I have my faith in the DC region to get it right. I had a long discussion with another ITB VW this evening and our decision was X. I hope you guys have a great season and we'll see you next year. Not bitching or "getting a grip" just our take on it. I actually like ITS and know a few great drivers, but I don't think it's a good (mid-season) decision. Looking forward to NJ and the ARRC. Have a great 4th everyone!

[lateapex911]

.....

As for the stewards...

Let's go to the tape...http://www.vimeo.com/2097173

No action taken. IIRC, there was an investigation by the operating steward who determined that an RFA wasn't justified. Could be wrong though.

Several incidents this year and the resulting penalties could leave one with the impression that going through the stewards will be about as useful as breasts on a boar.

Judging from that video, Greg should have written paper, and Aziz should have been punished. But from your description it sounds like Greg did not.

[Gregg]

I'd rather file the paper on make the stewards work - especially since I have a strong hunch that their hands were all over this move too.

Nope..not the case here. But a number of compelling stories of near misses between GT1 cars and ITS cars, as well as genuine fear from ITS drivers (incl. a former drivers school chief instructor) were behind the request. Admittedly some of those near misses owed to lack of awareness by ITS drivers more than anything, IMHO.

Whereas in the past the different reps to the CRC have been loathe to even consider mid-year group changes, I think this year is very different given our reliance "on the numbers" to create groups.

]As for the stewards...

Let's go to the tape...http://www.vimeo.com/2097173

No action taken. IIRC, there was an investigation by the operating steward who determined that an RFA wasn't justified. Could be wrong though.

Bad example, and I don't think we should be placing the onus on the stewards for something that hasn't even happened yet. In the above incident, an RFA against me was filed after the 007's crew chief approached a steward and complained. My explanation and video as well as video from a trailing car easily exonerated me.I chose not to file paperwork because I (mistakenly in this case) thought that talking to the driver would be more productive. Given the carnage I caused this past weekend, I'm glad that a few drivers made the same decision in working with me, though the stewards probably should have whacked me very hard.

With the overlap in lap times, I'm pretty confident that a correctly timed/spaced split start will eliminate inter-class racing. At this point, you have so few ITS cars out there (< 10) there should be little difference from running w/ IT7 (which has been moved to ITA/SRX7/T3).

As for the question of combining ITA & ITB in MARRS -- That would place us at or above the 50-car max for the track each race and make it almost impossible to get acceptable densities for other groupings. ITA and ITB were split apart mid-season four years ago for just this reason.

If there's one thing we (or Marshall as the ITS rep) should take away from all of this is that on the whole the MARRS ITS drives have a pretty poor reputation for awareness. A lot of that was earned running with ITA the past two years but also during preceding seasons. A lot of the names and cars have changed over the years but the on-track actions have not. My suggestion would be a group pow-wow to let them know what's up and what's on the line for them as a class and as individual drivers.

[Knestis]

While I am glad that the ITB/ITS grouping works for other regions racing programs it has been proven here in WDC that it DOES NOT work. The last year that I raced in ITB we were grouped with ITS. You did not have to worry about the front running ITS cars, but the under-developed/poorly driven ITS cars were a HUGE problem. If anyone doubts me on this I would be happy to provide video evidence of the clusterf#ck that went on all season. ...

With all due respect, it sounds like the complaint should be with those drivers rather than with the class or the grouping. Particularly at someplace like Summit where a strong group of regulars comes back over and over, it should be possible to deal with the issues rather than trying to legislate behaviors with rules.

K

EDIT - Whoops. What Jake said.

[mlytle]

dang, some of you guys need to get a grip. whenever two different classes are put together there are going to be challenges with the front of the slower class and the back of the faster class. its is NO DIFFERENT than any other class in this respect. there are situationally challanged drivers in EVERY class. i have run with/through/around itc, itb, ita and its drivers over the last 8 years. the range of talent and bozos is there in every class. does it suck not to be the fastest class in a run group? sure, but until we have enough track time for every class to have its own run group, we gotta share.

yes, there are some new drivers in its this year. the class is rebuilding. if any itb driver has an issue with an its driver, see me and bring your video. i will work with the its driver if they are the issue. my contact info is on the dcregion site.