is a mk2 16v competitive?

[shwah]

Digi conversion (or converting digi to CIS-E) has always been legal for the 8v cars because the spec line includes both systems. The vin rule being 'fixed' means you can now turn an 16v into an 8v and vice versa.

[mgyip]

Just a quick update - after what I've seen this w/e, the 16v GTi in 1.8l trim simply is NOT competitive in ITA. In other words, whomever is building one can either spend s**tloads of money to bring it to mid-pack or just spend their money more wisely and purchase either a Miata or a Honda product.

[Beran]

Hmm - Let's see this is a VW forum.
Screw the honda and Miata talk here.
One should buy an MK3 or MK4 and compete in ITB! Or a VW in Showroom stock.
;-)

[jlinfert]

Hmm - Let's see this is a VW forum.
Screw the honda and Miata talk here.
One should buy an MK3 or MK4 and compete in ITB! Or a VW in Showroom stock.
;-)

or a 98 99 new beetle and play in ITC

[GTIspirit]

spend their money more wisely and purchase either a Miata or a Honda product.

Wasn't that the whole reason for Spec Miata? Because people felt the Miata wasn't competitive in ITA?

[mgyip]

Wasn't that the whole reason for Spec Miata? Because people felt the Miata wasn't competitive in ITA?

I think you're confusing Wreck Pinata with Wreck RX-7 - IT7 came into being b/c SCCA couldn't get their heads out of their butts to realize that the RX-7s (ITA) were getting slaughtered by the fuel-infected cars. Wreck RX-7 came about first to give ITA RX-7 drivers a place to race where they wouldn't automatically be DFL.

I'm not sure why Wreck Pinata came about but on Saturday's race, a mildly prepared ITA Pinata won and the same car took 2nd on Sunday so it's certainly competitive.

[cjb25hs]

You could always switch the car over to an 8v car and run itb and be up towards the top 5 if prepped properly.

[mgyip]

I know - we're in the midst of converting an ITB car to ITA - talk about the irony.

Then again, we have an A3 ITB car in our area that's doing quite well. I'm sure there would be an ITB revolt if VWs were beating the Volvos and 2002s...

[Beran]

Well - yes we have to know the competition... but we should be wise about where our VW's will win. When I came back to club racing 5 years ago I knew I wanted to build and race a VW. I did research and figured out quick where the right place to be is.... ITB with an MK3... this will change.
Back when SRS was saying the 16v was good in ITA was in the mid 90's... then more cars ended up in ITA and it became less competitive. Many of the IMSA Firestone Firehawk ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...Showroom_Stock ) cars ended up in SCCA ITA. My first race car was an ex VW Firehawk car which I raced in ITA from 93-96.

There is a VW that is allowed to race in ITB that has not been build yet and that is the MK4. I have no idea if it will be slower, the same, or faster.
Anyone know if anyone is building one?

[Marcus Miller]

Just a quick update - after what I've seen this w/e, the 16v GTi in 1.8l trim simply is NOT competitive in ITA. In other words, whomever is building one can either spend s**tloads of money to bring it to mid-pack or just spend their money more wisely and purchase either a Miata or a Honda product.

What did you see that caused this change of heart? :026:

[mgyip]

I've getting WALKED by CRXs with stock final drives and Integras with 300K on the engine... Sure, I can spend big dollars and get the car back into the top 10 but I have serious doubts that the 16v will ever be a winner in ITA.

Competitive? Sure - if you don't mind racing for the top 15 (out of 14 cars) and I will say that it's fun to race regardless of finishing position. However, it's no fun to know you're vying for DFL and the only reason you're not is b/c you're younger and more angry than the guy who just wants to turn some laps.

Back in ancient history, BSI told me that I was a fool for racing a 16v - conversely, SRS was convinced that the car could be a winner. I'm starting to think that Stu was more correct especially since I don't have bottomless pockets for a hobby whose big "winning" is a nice plastic trophy.

Yes, this is a VW-related forum but to ignore the competition (Honda, Mazda) is just plain stupid. It's like reading VW Vortex, a rather large VW-oriented forum, whose entire premise is "We're so blinded by VW that we'll overlook everything else so we can remain brand-loyal".

[GTIspirit]

I've getting WALKED by CRXs with stock final drives and Integras with 300K on the engine... Sure, I can spend big dollars and get the car back into the top 10 but I have serious doubts that the 16v will ever be a winner in ITA.

So you think the 16V is uncompetitive in ITA because of the engine, rather than the brakes or handling? I'm curious, how much power/torque would make the 16V a front runner in ITA?

[jmracer17]

Well how much more power does a "well built" 16v make over a "well built" 8v? I dont know if its possible, but why doesnt it get droped to itb? Woud it just then walk away from the field? Sorry if its a dumb question but really dont know the output/handling/braking diference.

[mgyip]

why doesnt it get droped to itb? Woud it just then walk away from the field?

Because it's still too fast for ITB. The Catch-22 in this game (and I'll well aware of it and not complaining as much as stating fact) is that SCCA provides us a place to race but does NOT guarantee a car's competitiveness in any given class. This is part of the racing game - if you want the fastest car in a class, you'll virtually have to purchase a different car every year.

In my case, I'm stubborn (and apparently stupid) because I've been racing the same type of car for 12 years. After 12 years, I'm finally READING the writing on the walls - it's been there for 15 years but I just didn't read it. The question I keep asking myself if "Do I want to continue being DFL? Do I want to switch to a different car and/or class? Do I want to sell this car and take up underwater basketweaving?"

I'm tired of being DFL - I know that. Like most of us who race a certain make/model of car, I have a plethora of spares. Junk to most people but spares to the racers who can appreciate a 130K mile engine that ran when it was removed 8 years ago. Underwater basketweaving sounds like fun but in the Mid-Atlantic, we can only do that about 7 months out of the year before it gets too cold...

[mgyip]

So you think the 16V is uncompetitive in ITA because of the engine, rather than the brakes or handling? I'm curious, how much power/torque would make the 16V a front runner in ITA?

In those terms, both power and handling are weak points for the A2 chassis in general, especially with the current rules of "open ECUs BUT no standalone units". Ironically, the CRB hides behind "Not consistent with the intention of the class" and yet allows open ECUs which are every bit as pricey (if not more expensive) than a standalone unit. Then again, SCCA has to be incredibly cautious about their decisions and they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings - hence the stupidity about not requiring a HNR but that's another argument entirely.

How much power would a front runner make? Dunno - I'm putting about 130 to the flywheel (last year before freshening the bottom end) - I'm figuring the Hondas and Datsuns, er Nissans are 140ish since they benefit from the open ECU allowance.

The VWs with CIS and CIS-E CAN be tuned but that requires going to a dyno, grabbing one's ankles and saying "Thank you, may I have another" when the tuning is done. While the EFI tuning programs are similar, their "tuning" is much more simplified b/c it involves a dyno and a computer rather than a dyno and a myriad of VW-specific tools and gadgets to trick the CIS-E computer. Furthermore, while an EFI system can be tuned across the entire RPM range, CIS-E, because it is dumb system (both figuratively and literally), can only be tuned for a specific RPM range. This isn't bad and that's how Nastycar tunes their cars BUT the caveat is that when the car drops out of that RPM range, all the other cars sail past...

[GTIspirit]

with the current rules of "open ECUs BUT no standalone units". Ironically, the CRB hides behind "Not consistent with the intention of the class" and yet allows open ECUs which are every bit as pricey (if not more expensive) than a standalone unit.

How much power would a front runner make? Dunno - I'm putting about 130 to the flywheel (last year before freshening the bottom end) - I'm figuring the Hondas and Datsuns, er Nissans are 140ish since they benefit from the open ECU allowance.

Sorry, but I don't understand the difference between an "open" ECU and a "standalone" unit. Could you please elaborate?

A few years ago when I was re-building my PL engine to IT spec I bought the parts from Raffi at Eurosport. I'm pretty sure he said that about 150hp could be had out of the 16V. But I haven't been to the dyno and so have no idea the output of my rebuilt engine, rebuilt with all the allowances.

I can think of a few easy ways to install an aftermarket ECU to control spark and fueling on the KE-Jetronic system, without changing injectors or the distributor. But the limitation is the four-window hall effect camshaft sensor. Without an allowance for a toothed crankshaft wheel and sensor, it would require customized software and the spark timing wouldn't be very accurate. Which is why I had earlier suggested that the SCCA define a common sensor set so that all cars may take equal advantage of the open ECU rule and have a level playing field.