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Thread: is a mk2 16v competitive?

  1. #1
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    Default is a mk2 16v competitive?

    What's up guys, I have never raced befor ebut after spending all of last weekend at the track watching qualifiying and the what not i'm hooked. I have a old '87 bumping around that i was thinking of converting but wanted to know if it would really be worth it or shoud i look for a better option. thanks guys

  2. #2
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    The later 2.0 16v was made eligible for ITA a few years ago but I don't know if anyone's built one. I don't think they are perfect on paper but they should be in the ballpark, assuming build quality, budget, and driving skill are comparable.

    The 1.8 is listed 275 pounds lighter than the Rat motor. I've seen a couple of examples of that car and they seem to struggle. I don't know if it can actually get down to its race weight.

    Under current rules, it's legal to turn an 8v or early 16v into a 2.0 if the car you end up with is exactly the same as it would have been if you'd started with a "real" 90-92 GTI (e.g., big bumpers).

    Where are you located? There might be people near you who can help...

    K

  3. #3
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    Way back at ARRC 1 it was good enough to win, though a wet race IIRC.

    The US intake cam is awfully weak on those, and the exhaust side ports are pretty crappy without a good work over (which can't be done in IT). Those factors may make it tough to keep up on the straights. The chassis is a known quantity. I would go with the lower weight 1.8 myself. Actually considered doing it sometime just to see what it does.

    If you do go 2.0, you may not be limited to big bumpers as many early 90 cars came with smalls.

    Also note the Jettas have 10.1 front brakes (so do the Sciroccos), the GTI has 9.4. But that has no bearing on how the ITAC classified them, so I am told.
    Chris Schaafsma
    Golf 2 HProd

    AMT Racing Engines - DIYAutoTune.com

  4. #4
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    Default Put an 8v head on it and go into ITB

    Switch it over to a 1.8L 8V..... Then compete in ITB.
    It is very competitive there.
    Currently, It is not competitive in ITA with the 16 valve.


    Beran
    Beran Peter
    ITB #0 NER
    VW Golf

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by evofool View Post
    What's up guys, I have never raced befor ebut after spending all of last weekend at the track watching qualifiying and the what not i'm hooked. I have a old '87 bumping around that i was thinking of converting but wanted to know if it would really be worth it or shoud i look for a better option. thanks guys
    I know a lot of guys like the build as much as the racing, but if you want to save a ton of money and save on frustration you should probably buy your first car. You can get some decent cars for dirt cheap these days. There are two Saturns in the For Sale section (for example) that would be very inexpensive to get on the track and they are both good cars
    Jeff L

    ITA Miata



    2010 NARRC Champion

    2007 NERRC Championship, 2nd place
    2008 NARRC Championship, 2nd place
    2009 NARRC Championship, 2nd place

  6. #6
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    What Jeff says should NOT be neglected.

    It might *seem* like it would be cheaper to "do it a little bit at a time" but it almost never works out that way. If you can't afford the $$ to buy a car outright, you're better off opening a savings account and putting the dough in it rather than into a project. When you have saved enough, go shopping. If you DON'T save enough, at least you have the money rather than a half-finished stack of parts that are worth pennies on the dollar.

    K

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knestis View Post
    What Jeff says should NOT be neglected.

    It might *seem* like it would be cheaper to "do it a little bit at a time" but it almost never works out that way. If you can't afford the $$ to buy a car outright, you're better off opening a savings account and putting the dough in it rather than into a project. When you have saved enough, go shopping. If you DON'T save enough, at least you have the money rather than a half-finished stack of parts that are worth pennies on the dollar.

    K
    the words of a very wise man...
    Chris Rallo "the kid"
    -- "wrenching and racing" -- "will race for food!" -- "Onward and Upward"

  8. #8
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    I built my car and while I like my car a lot, it's taken forever to get it right and it costs way more than you could imagine. Used race cars can be really cheap....
    -----------
    '89 RX-7 ITS

  9. #9
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    Default 16v ITA

    I run one now. Its a 1.8. I haven't touched the motor yet because I am still learning (17yrs old only 5 races). As far as I can see when someone else was in the car, there is nothing for the miatas or integras. Yes they have motors in them other than stock but still, Daytona they all walk away. Sebring is the same. I know most of it is me because I don't know the tricks of speed good enough yet but still, not very competitive. Great learner car though. Hey and I couldn't beat the price.... FREE!
    James Coyne
    CFR
    1987 VW Golf 16V STL
    coyneracing.com

  10. #10
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    yeah, i'm kinda figuring it would be slower i suppose, the car has a 1.8l in it... i'll probably stay with it and see what happens, weight ratio wise it seems to make more sense. whats the average cost for a cage in one of these things.(this is my 3rd mk2, been driving the hell out of them for awhile)
    Last edited by evofool; 06-18-2009 at 01:40 AM.

  11. #11
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    Where are you located? Qualified cage builders who know the rules (very important) aren't very common.

    K

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by evofool View Post
    yeah, i'm kinda figuring it would be slower i suppose, the car has a 1.8l in it... i'll probably stay with it and see what happens, weight ratio wise it seems to make more sense. whats the average cost for a cage in one of these things.(this is my 3rd mk2, been driving the hell out of them for awhile)

    He's not listening!!

    :cool:
    Jeff L

    ITA Miata



    2010 NARRC Champion

    2007 NERRC Championship, 2nd place
    2008 NARRC Championship, 2nd place
    2009 NARRC Championship, 2nd place

  13. #13
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    So what car is it that you are staying with? 1.8 or 2.0? Couldn't tell if that comment was about the previous post, or about your car.

    Now with the 1.8 you must retain the small bumpers.
    I don't recall whether they were available without power steering. I know the Scirocco 16v came that way...
    Getting the fueling right above 5k rpm will make a big difference. Like 10+ hp all by itself in some cases. When you get to that point, get it on a dyno and get it right.
    Last edited by shwah; 06-18-2009 at 08:31 AM.
    Chris Schaafsma
    Golf 2 HProd

    AMT Racing Engines - DIYAutoTune.com

  14. #14
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    The 16V needs to turn to 8000rpm to get to the power level for ITA(150+hp). The stock, legal, cams wont allow much over 7200. 7200 is about the max for the 8V with the best cam and the ECM that allows proper fuel metering. After 20 years of racing both engines , the 8V comes alive much better, class wise, and cheaper than the 16v. And the 8V will tolerate the stock style fuel system better.
    I worked for VW about 1991 or so and power steering was "standard" . I have never seen any 16v delivered without PS. They may exist ,but not many came that way.IMHO. Maybe 1987.5 Golfs, just after the Rocco intro.
    You have to use the standard details the 16V to spin. IE, piston to wall needs to be about 005. Total Seal rings. The cams need to be closed up,as much as the rules allow. The compression highest, etc.
    When you get all done, the car is still an aero brick, the roll centers are too high, the windsheild angle is too steep, etc. The ITB has a lower terminal V and the aero stuff is less of a factor. The ITA should go about 135 @ Daytona, The ITB goes about 120+-3. The 16V Golf wont go 135, the Rocco barely does.
    The 16V Jeta is much better balanced and aero wise it is a lot better, FWIW. The VW makes a great track car and midpack racer, dont ever expect to get any money back out of the vast amounts spent.
    You can buy one done for 6000$ usually. About half of the parts cost. The price is low because of the racing results, winning cars are worth more.

    The 16V is a very nice power package. We drive an old beater Jett 16V. At this point in time, they are better kept than most 8V
    James, I meant to talk to you more @ Sebring about your 16V, but I was busy with our new Spiniata.
    I can send you a good base line setup for your car(known good values) E mail me ,I'll get back to you about wed next week. (Off to Summit today)
    [email protected]
    MM
    Last edited by Flyinglizard; 06-18-2009 at 09:53 AM.
    Mike Ogren , FWDracingguide.com, 352.4288.983 ,http://www.ogren-engineering.com/

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyinglizard View Post
    ... The cams need to be closed up,as much as the rules allow. ...
    Okay, I'll bite. What does this mean...?

    K

  16. #16
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    the owner of eurosport Raffi, owns one and races it in ITA, he has won several races and is competitive. From what I understand it is not a fully developed car either.

  17. #17
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    Buy A Used Race Car!!! But buy one as it comes off the track. You will have plenty to do sorting a used car. I know where there is an ITC Scirocco with a DOM cage suitable for Production with a quaife and a 4.40 something ring and pinion. It is just sitting collecting dust in South Florida. Regards

  18. #18
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    i'm in the northwest and haven't seen anything for sale yet... i'm listening, just alittle stubborn i suppose.

  19. #19
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    What is your budget? There are a couple cars on the Council forum that look interesting.

    http://www.icscc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100
    http://www.icscc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293

    If you are set on a VW, there is this:
    https://improvedtouring.com...ad.php?t=25914
    Not local though.

    On Edit: You are close enough to get a car from Norcal, so also keep and eye on the NASA Forums, as well as craigslist for any place between San Francisco and Seattle. Search for SCCA and NASA, you will sometimes find good deals, like this: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/cto/1236970395.html

    Tom
    Last edited by Tom A; 06-25-2009 at 11:31 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandro View Post
    the owner of eurosport Raffi, owns one and races it in ITA, he has won several races and is competitive. From what I understand it is not a fully developed car either.
    That begs the questions of where does he race and who is he racing against? A 1.8 16v or a 2.0 16v isn't going to stand a chance in a North East ITA race. Cut the weight of the 2.0 closer to that of the 1.8, and you might have a chance.

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