is a mk2 16v competitive?

[Marcus Miller]

Just a quick update - after what I've seen this w/e, the 16v GTi in 1.8l trim simply is NOT competitive in ITA. In other words, whomever is building one can either spend s**tloads of money to bring it to mid-pack or just spend their money more wisely and purchase either a Miata or a Honda product.

What did you see that caused this change of heart? :026:

[mgyip]

I've getting WALKED by CRXs with stock final drives and Integras with 300K on the engine... Sure, I can spend big dollars and get the car back into the top 10 but I have serious doubts that the 16v will ever be a winner in ITA.

Competitive? Sure - if you don't mind racing for the top 15 (out of 14 cars) and I will say that it's fun to race regardless of finishing position. However, it's no fun to know you're vying for DFL and the only reason you're not is b/c you're younger and more angry than the guy who just wants to turn some laps.

Back in ancient history, BSI told me that I was a fool for racing a 16v - conversely, SRS was convinced that the car could be a winner. I'm starting to think that Stu was more correct especially since I don't have bottomless pockets for a hobby whose big "winning" is a nice plastic trophy.

Yes, this is a VW-related forum but to ignore the competition (Honda, Mazda) is just plain stupid. It's like reading VW Vortex, a rather large VW-oriented forum, whose entire premise is "We're so blinded by VW that we'll overlook everything else so we can remain brand-loyal".

[GTIspirit]

I've getting WALKED by CRXs with stock final drives and Integras with 300K on the engine... Sure, I can spend big dollars and get the car back into the top 10 but I have serious doubts that the 16v will ever be a winner in ITA.

So you think the 16V is uncompetitive in ITA because of the engine, rather than the brakes or handling? I'm curious, how much power/torque would make the 16V a front runner in ITA?

[jmracer17]

Well how much more power does a "well built" 16v make over a "well built" 8v? I dont know if its possible, but why doesnt it get droped to itb? Woud it just then walk away from the field? Sorry if its a dumb question but really dont know the output/handling/braking diference.

[mgyip]

why doesnt it get droped to itb? Woud it just then walk away from the field?

Because it's still too fast for ITB. The Catch-22 in this game (and I'll well aware of it and not complaining as much as stating fact) is that SCCA provides us a place to race but does NOT guarantee a car's competitiveness in any given class. This is part of the racing game - if you want the fastest car in a class, you'll virtually have to purchase a different car every year.

In my case, I'm stubborn (and apparently stupid) because I've been racing the same type of car for 12 years. After 12 years, I'm finally READING the writing on the walls - it's been there for 15 years but I just didn't read it. The question I keep asking myself if "Do I want to continue being DFL? Do I want to switch to a different car and/or class? Do I want to sell this car and take up underwater basketweaving?"

I'm tired of being DFL - I know that. Like most of us who race a certain make/model of car, I have a plethora of spares. Junk to most people but spares to the racers who can appreciate a 130K mile engine that ran when it was removed 8 years ago. Underwater basketweaving sounds like fun but in the Mid-Atlantic, we can only do that about 7 months out of the year before it gets too cold...

[lateapex911]

Because it's still too fast for ITB. The Catch-22 in this game (and I'll well aware of it and not complaining as much as stating fact) is that SCCA provides us a place to race but does NOT guarantee a car's competitiveness in any given class. This is part of the racing game - if you want the fastest car in a class, you'll virtually have to purchase a different car every year.



I'm tired of being DFL - I know that. ...

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I seriously doubt you're DFL. If you are, you have other issues than the car. There's a lot of talent levels out there, and you have to work to be DFL. I'll assume you're exaggerating for effect.
That aside, I have to call BS on the "new car every year" comment.. that's a HUGE exaggeration. I recently chatted with a CRX owner who complained his car was "junk" now. Yea, he's running tenths off (or under in testing) track records, and he's complaining that other cars have easier time tuning because they are OBDII. Boo hoo, LOL. Hard to not chuckle at that point of view when you look at the process used to class, the reported power levels, and dare I cite it: results. A car like his, a CRX, has won the ARRCs, (*)and the IT-Fest last year, and has been competitive for years. Except when they were beaten by Acuras. Or Nissan 240sx's. Or Nissan NX-2000. Yea, those cars are the same configuration as they've been for years.

If you had to buy a new car every year, that wouldn't be the case.

Regarding the possible move to ITB, here's how it plays out. (And, oh, let's not paint the picture of the Volvos and the 2002s getting all pissed if they were to be challenged, they might be big in the MARRS series, but lok around. Track record in Watkins Glen: Prelude. Atlanta? Golf III, I think. Or Accord. Point is, there are lots of candidates, and the Volvos and 2002s are only two of them.)

So, to move the car, you get to run the car through the process, (Assumed power times ITB factor plus minus any "adders".) That results in a new ITB weight, heavier than the current ITA weight. AND you get to buy a quiver of 6" (lightweight!) wheels and tires, and go testing the new wheel tire setup.

The ITAC looks hard at such class changes, because it's rather upsetting to many who are happy racing their cars as is. Whenever moves like that are made, there ARE people who are negatively affected...it's got to be clear case of the car not being able to make weight or some clear disadvantage.

Sorry to say, (and MAtt, I know you understand this, I'm just restating it...) but we all choose our cars, and we accept the warts, whether they are handling oddities, or difficult to deal with ECU systems, or components that wear excessivley.

* the win was taken in tech due to a cold air intake infraction. Same car is now running a compliant system, and won the IT Fest.

[mgyip]

DFL is certainly a relative term - we have cars that are well prepared and driven "gently" by drivers whose talent isn't at "the next level". Having a tiny bit of experience, I feel that I'm wringing out at least 90% (or more) out of my antique POS and yet the car keeps moving backwards in comparison. The "fast" ITA cars are in the 1.26 and 1.27s while the old VW is turning 1:30s on a good day (with a tailwind). Hence the comments that the car is no longer competitive. Heck, I'd be ecstatic to just break into the 1:29s but that probably won't happen in my lifetime or without a JATO.

Let me clarify further that a new car isn't necessary EVERY year but part of this is just the nature of the beast - as newer cars are classified, the older cars fall further down the food chain. At some point, the question must be asked whether it's better to spend $20K to fully prep an ITA CRX or an ITA Pinata.

I'm not so interested in running the car in ITB as I am about making the ECU ruling more fair to cars that don't have EFI. The ruling, as I read and interpret it, allows EFI cars to run anything they'd like on top of the factory system. Unfortunately, the non-EFI cars (in particular CIS and CIS-E cars - BMW, MB, Volvo and VW come to mind), don't have that benefit since their injection system is little more than a glorified electronic carburetor. I'm not sure how to address this but have been sorely disappointed with the ITAC's initial allowance of open ECUs - the rumor mill says that this was because the cheating was so rampant and there was no simple way to verify ECU programming that the ITAC decided that it was better to finally legalize the cheating than to try and crack down on the various and sundry "tunes" being run in EFI cars.

Yes, I opted to race a VW product and I've been living with the drawbacks - this holds true for ANY car since we all know (hopefully) that there is no such thing as a perfect car. Honds are fast but twitchy and fragile, 240s are heavy and the engines are tempermental....the list of issues goes on and on...

I'll hang on to my POS a while longer - until someone wants to pay me way too much money for an ITA car so I can either move on to something different or just "retire".

[mgyip]

So you think the 16V is uncompetitive in ITA because of the engine, rather than the brakes or handling? I'm curious, how much power/torque would make the 16V a front runner in ITA?

In those terms, both power and handling are weak points for the A2 chassis in general, especially with the current rules of "open ECUs BUT no standalone units". Ironically, the CRB hides behind "Not consistent with the intention of the class" and yet allows open ECUs which are every bit as pricey (if not more expensive) than a standalone unit. Then again, SCCA has to be incredibly cautious about their decisions and they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings - hence the stupidity about not requiring a HNR but that's another argument entirely.

How much power would a front runner make? Dunno - I'm putting about 130 to the flywheel (last year before freshening the bottom end) - I'm figuring the Hondas and Datsuns, er Nissans are 140ish since they benefit from the open ECU allowance.

The VWs with CIS and CIS-E CAN be tuned but that requires going to a dyno, grabbing one's ankles and saying "Thank you, may I have another" when the tuning is done. While the EFI tuning programs are similar, their "tuning" is much more simplified b/c it involves a dyno and a computer rather than a dyno and a myriad of VW-specific tools and gadgets to trick the CIS-E computer. Furthermore, while an EFI system can be tuned across the entire RPM range, CIS-E, because it is dumb system (both figuratively and literally), can only be tuned for a specific RPM range. This isn't bad and that's how Nastycar tunes their cars BUT the caveat is that when the car drops out of that RPM range, all the other cars sail past...

[GTIspirit]

with the current rules of "open ECUs BUT no standalone units". Ironically, the CRB hides behind "Not consistent with the intention of the class" and yet allows open ECUs which are every bit as pricey (if not more expensive) than a standalone unit.

How much power would a front runner make? Dunno - I'm putting about 130 to the flywheel (last year before freshening the bottom end) - I'm figuring the Hondas and Datsuns, er Nissans are 140ish since they benefit from the open ECU allowance.

Sorry, but I don't understand the difference between an "open" ECU and a "standalone" unit. Could you please elaborate?

A few years ago when I was re-building my PL engine to IT spec I bought the parts from Raffi at Eurosport. I'm pretty sure he said that about 150hp could be had out of the 16V. But I haven't been to the dyno and so have no idea the output of my rebuilt engine, rebuilt with all the allowances.

I can think of a few easy ways to install an aftermarket ECU to control spark and fueling on the KE-Jetronic system, without changing injectors or the distributor. But the limitation is the four-window hall effect camshaft sensor. Without an allowance for a toothed crankshaft wheel and sensor, it would require customized software and the spark timing wouldn't be very accurate. Which is why I had earlier suggested that the SCCA define a common sensor set so that all cars may take equal advantage of the open ECU rule and have a level playing field.

[jmracer17]

Wow. Ok. I agree it sucks being DFL. Esp. after i took my schools in A sedans. Well Im still on a bone stock motor so I am way down on power but I just cant see dropping 3k in a motor to still be DFL. In CFR, the ITA field is allot of Miatas. Yes, allot of it is driver but the other part is the car. I guess if you want to be up front you have to drop big money and for me, not going to happen. Im just starting college and cant afford it so it sucks. I guess thats why they say "cubic dollars" or "be born rich."

[Marcus Miller]

Wow. Ok. I agree it sucks being DFL. Esp. after i took my schools in A sedans. Well Im still on a bone stock motor so I am way down on power but I just cant see dropping 3k in a motor to still be DFL. In CFR, the ITA field is allot of Miatas. Yes, allot of it is driver but the other part is the car. I guess if you want to be up front you have to drop big money and for me, not going to happen. Im just starting college and cant afford it so it sucks. I guess thats why they say "cubic dollars" or "be born rich."

Not really; its about choosing your ride.
You can replicate my mid to upper pack (depending on driver) car for ~7K.

[lateapex911]

. Im just starting college and cant afford it so it sucks. I guess thats why they say "cubic dollars" or "be born rich."

If you're in college AND racing, you're living pretty large. Patience, grasshopper!