Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 40 of 42

Thread: The GCR and You

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    7,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JLawton View Post



    Has anyone seen a steward order a tear down without receiving a protest?

    .
    Is this even within thier scope?
    Andy Bettencourt
    New England Region 188967

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    hampden,ma.usa
    Posts
    3,083

    Default

    Well there was this time a couple of years ago in So Cal with Miatas having headsshipped to Topeka but it almost started a congressional investigation. Any steward who knows the story would likely not make the same mistakes.
    dick patullo
    ner scca IT7 Rx7

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    7,381

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Bettencourt View Post
    Is this even within thier scope?
    Yes. But by doing so the Region would be liable for any expense(s) of the tear-down if the car were found legal.

    There are special cases, such as the Runoffs and the ARRC, where it is specified in the supps that cars will be torn down at the competitors' own expense, but they are rare. This is why most post-race inspections ordered by the Tech Steward are purely of a non-destructive nature (e.g., weighing, open hoods, track, wheel width, boroscope, Whistler, etc).

    Best to accept that if you want to see the inside of a competitor's engine, yer gonna have ta crack open your wallet. - GA

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Wheaton, IL
    Posts
    1,893

    Default

    It would be cool if someone that had the ability made these threads sticky somewhere. They, and the ensuing discussions are a nice resource.
    Chris Schaafsma
    Golf 2 HProd

    AMT Racing Engines - DIYAutoTune.com

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Somewhere in Upstate New York
    Posts
    1,033

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Amy View Post
    Best to accept that if you want to see the inside of a competitor's engine, yer gonna have ta crack open your wallet.

    Even if you crack open that wallet...and the motor does get opened...you're not likely to see it or get any useful info, other a "compliant" or a "not compliant" verdict.

    You can use a teardown as a fishing expedition, but you will not be allowed to eat the fish.

  6. #6

    Default Part 6 - Your Car and Equipment

    (Part 6 of 'You and the GCR'. With thanks to John Haydon for suggesting the topic.)

    Part 6 - Your Car and Equipment

    The GCR contains over 400 pages of rules and specs for cars and equipment, and there is no point in regurgitating them here. Instead, this is a highly-selective list of items from 9.2/9.3 which have tripped people up at annual tech or at the track.


    Documentation

    Your car's logbook requires photographs of the car, and should record changes of ownership (i.e. you should be listed as the current owner) [9.2.1.C].

    If your car is subject to homologation (formula and sports racers registered after 1983), remember that it is homologated by class. If you choose to convert it to another class (e.g. FC to F, it must be homologated into the new class, following the rules in the current GCR, not the year of original manufacture [9.2.2].


    Flying Objects
    Are the following items fastened securely: ballast [9.3.8], batteries [9.3.9], body panels [9.3.10], cameras [9.3.12]?


    Fire Safety
    Review 9.3.22. You can't test-fire the fire system, but are the lines and nozzles clean, clear, not rusted? Do you have holes in the firewall or floor? "Firewall and floor shall prevent the passage of flame and debris into the driver’s compartment." [9.3.23]


    Roll Cage
    We still encounter cars which do not have the current standard side tubes installed. "Two side tubes connecting the front and main hoops across both door openings are mandatory." [9.4.D] Remember that we no longer give waivers on safety items.


    Driver Safety Gear

    "Arm restraints shall not be worn in a manner which limits the ability of the driver to provide visible signals to other competitors while on track" [9.3.18]

    Belts must meet SFI (16.1 or 16.5) or FIA (8853/98 8854/98) specifications [9.3.18.G]. SFI belts expire at the end of the second year following manufacture (e.g. a belt manufactured anytime in 2009 expires at the end of 2011). FIA belts carry their expiration date on the belt.

    Driver safety equipment is required to be "... in good condition and free of defects, holes, cracks, frays etc." [9.3.19.C]

    For helmets, SCCA permits the two most recent Snell certifications, and drops the older one when a new certification is released. The oldest Snell certification permitted by the 2009 GCR is SA2000. When the next standard is released (probably SA2010), the oldest permitted standard will be SA2005, if past practice is a guide.

    The driver's uniform "... shall display the official SCCA uniform patch logo ...", SCCA item #3619 or #3637 [9.3.28.C].


    Bodywork

    It's worth quoting GCR 9.3.6 in full:

    "Appearance neat and clean, and suitable for competition. Specifically,
    cars that are dirty either externally or in the engine or passenger compartments,
    or that show bodywork damage, structural or surface rust, or that
    are partially or totally in primer, or that do not bear the prescribed identification
    marks shall not be approved for competition."

    Simply put, your car must be structurally sound, clean, with bodywork and paint in undamaged (not necessarily showroom) condition, and carrying specified decals in specified locations.

    Many (most?) Tech folks will let smaller bodywork issues slide during the year, but make logbook notations at the last race of the season, directing bodywork repairs before the first race of the next season.


    Graphics, Decals and Numbers

    Graphics are permitted "... provided they are in good taste and do not interfere with identification marks and SCCA logos." [9.3.3] In addition, "Logos and decals of sanctioning bodies other than SCCA shall be removed or covered (car and driver’s suit)." [9.3.28.C]

    The following items are required:

    Fire System. A circle 'E' decal, SCCA item #2607. See 9.3.22.A.3.a/b for specific location required for types of cars.

    Master Switch. A spark in a blue triangle, SCCA item #2606. See 9.3.33.A/B/C for specific location required for types of cars.

    SCCA Logo. SCCA field logo, SCCA item #2608. They shall be displayed "... unobstructed and prominently on both sides of the car and adjacent to the side numbers. A third logo shall be displayed on the front of the car unobstructed and prominently near the front number. The logo shall be on the spoiler of cars so equipped." [9.3.28.C]

    Numbers and Class Identification. These "... shall meet the approval of the Chief of Timing and Scoring." [9.3.28.A] If the folks in T&S cannot read your numbers you will be asked (told) to make them more visible. "Numbers shall be at least eight (8) inches high, with a 1.5 inch stroke on a contrasting backgound. ... The distance between two (2) numbers shall be at least as wide as the stroke of the numbers." [9.3.28.B]
    Last edited by Greg Amy; 08-18-2009 at 10:27 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    1,215

    Default

    On the roll cages section, I'd also add that all welds must be 360 degrees around the tube and no grinding of any welds allowed. Both of those are often overlooked.

    A few weeks ago, I teched an SCCA logbooked ITB car for NASA and the welds that were there were ground down and bondo'd over.
    Scott Rhea
    Izzy's Custom Cages
    It's not what you build... It's how you build it
    Performance Driven LLC
    Neon Racing Springs

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    SE Michigan
    Posts
    147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Raycer View Post
    On the roll cages section, I'd also add that all welds must be 360 degrees around the tube and no grinding of any welds allowed. Both of those are often overlooked.
    I've heard that the tech inspectors pay specific attention to this. I looked for this requirement in the 2009 GCR, but could not find it in the rollcage section that I thought pertains to IT cars.

    IT cars follow section 9.4 Roll Cages for GT and Production Based Cars, and not section 9.4.5 Roll Cages for Formula Cars and Sports Racers, right? Under section 9.4 I can't find this requirement. But under section 9.4.5 I find the following:
    9.4.5.E.6.
    ...Welds shall be continuous around the entire tubular structure.
    The reason I was looking is because as everyone is well aware, it is extremely difficult to weld all the way around certain joints, and I wanted to know if there was an allowance where gussets might preclude full circumferential welding. So where exactly is this requirement that sometimes catches some people?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Tijeras, NM
    Posts
    579

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Raycer View Post
    On the roll cages section, I'd also add that all welds must be 360 degrees around the tube and no grinding of any welds allowed. Both of those are often overlooked.
    That would be good practice, but where is it required in the rules?

    See 9.4.G.4:
    It is recommended that all joints of the roll cage be welded. All welding must include full penetration, no cold lap, no surface porosity, no crater porosity, no cracks, no whiskers, and so forth. Alloy steel must be normalized after welding. It is recom-mended that a certified AWS D1.1 welder do all welding.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    1,215

    Default

    9.4.5.E.6. (I think... I suck at following that BS) I'll have to dig for the AWS code, but can guarantee that it's against the code to grind a weld, but for now, this'll have to do:

    6. Welding shall conform to American Welding Society D1.1:2002, Structural Welding Code, Steel Chapter 10, Tubular Structures. Whenever D1.1 refers to "the Engineer" this shall be inter-preted to be the owner of the vehicle. Welds shall be contin-uous around the entire tubular structure. All welds shall be visually inspected and shall be acceptable if the following conditions are satisfied: a. The weld shall have no cracks. b. Thorough fusion shall exist between weld metal and base metal. c. All craters shall be filled to the cross section of the weld. d. Undercut shall be no more than 0.01 inch deep.

    Scott Rhea
    Izzy's Custom Cages
    It's not what you build... It's how you build it
    Performance Driven LLC
    Neon Racing Springs

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Fredericksburg, VA
    Posts
    1,191

    Default

    Scott, the other guys were pointing out that the section you quoted is under the rules for formula & sport racers cars. The rules for production and GT cars don't include that same stipulation. It looks like maybe it got lost when the new roll cage rules were written, as the stipulation IS included under "Basic Design Considerations" in the "Appendix G - 2007 Roll Cage Rules" section.
    Earl R.
    240SX
    ITA/ST5

  12. #12

    Default Epilogue - First Principles

    (Last episode in the series 'You and the GCR')

    Epilogue - First Principles

    Perhaps the worst plight of a vessel is to be caught in a gale on a lee shore. In this connection the following ... rules should be observed:

    1. Never allow your vessel to be found in such a predicament.

    LF Callingham: Seamanship: Jottings for the Young Sailor

    For this last posting in the series, I depart from my earlier practice. Till now, we have basically been discussing what happens when something goes wrong. You have doubtless already guessed that everything in these posts came from incidents I observed at the track this year.

    In this piece, I want instead to discuss those things you can do to prevent unhappy outcomes.

    Based on all I have seen this year, I offer the following first principles. If you follow them, you will be much less likely to have problems in your racing.

    1. Maintain situational awareness. Keep your eyes moving at all times. Check your mirrors. Check the flag stations. Be aware of other cars around you, and how they are moving with respect to yours. Be aware of cars coming up on you.

    2. Save some bandwidth. If you are spending your entire mental budget on simply lapping at some speed, you won't have any brain power left over to deal with emergencies or unusual situations. I have interviewed drivers coming off track whose eyes were quite glazed over. They had overloaded their ability to process information.

    3. Be predictable, especially in mixed-class race groups. Hold your line. Don't suddenly change your line, thinking that it will allow faster cars to pass. They saw you before you saw them, and they most likely made a plan based on your trajectory. Don't surprise them.

    4. Make a plan. Be ready for the unexpected or unusual. What will you do if the car in front spins after you have committed to a turn? What if you lose oil pressure? Are you even checking the oil pressure? In the moment, it will be too late to think about what to do. It's better to have thought scenarios through in advance, and to be ready.

    5. Obey the Rules of the Road. Read section 6.8.1 of the GCR (or page 12 of the Portable Driver's Advisor). The rules for on-course conduct are really quite simple. They boil down to seven words: 'No Contact', 'No Blocking', and 'Leave Racing Room'. Please remember that 'incidental contact' does not exist anywhere in the rules.

    6. In a spin? Both feet in. I continue to be amazed at how many drivers forget this simple rule from drivers school. Almost every month, I see a collision caused by a driver failing to keep the brakes on when spinning, reaching the top of some slope, and then rolling back into traffic.

    7. Do you have an exit strategy? Practice getting out of your racecar with your eyes closed. If it catches fire, you will have a short time in which to get out and possibly little visibility. Can you get out in 6 or 7 seconds? After you crash, it will be too late to practice. Also, did you arm your fire system before going on track? Make that part of your pre-session checklist.

    8. Work on your decision-making skills. I see a wide variety of bad outcomes. Yet virtually all of them fit in the bucket labeled 'Poor Choices'. Ask yourself, does the gain justify the risk in making this move? Can I achieve the same result by waiting till the next turn or the next lap, or by taking a different approach? Is this really a good idea? So often, I see incidents which have everyone asking, "What was he thinking?"


    I hope this series has been interesting and informative. I'll look forward to seeing you at the track.
    Last edited by Greg Amy; 08-18-2009 at 10:28 AM.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    358

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by John Nesbitt View Post
    (Last episode in the series 'You and the GCR')


    Perhaps the worst plight of a vessel is to be caught in a gale on a lee shore. In this connection the following ... rules should be observed:

    1. Never allow your vessel to be found in such a predicament.

    LF Callingham: Seamanship: Jottings for the Young Sailor

    For this last posting in the series, I depart from my earlier practice. Till now, we have basically been discussing what happens when something goes wrong. You have doubtless already guessed that everything in these posts came from incidents I observed at the track this year.

    In this piece, I want instead to discuss those things you can do to prevent unhappy outcomes.

    Based on all I have seen this year, I offer the following first principles. If you follow them, you will be much less likely to have problems in your racing.

    1. Maintain situational awareness. Keep your eyes moving at all times. Check your mirrors. Check the flag stations. Be aware of other cars around you, and how they are moving with respect to yours. Be aware of cars coming up on you.

    2. Save some bandwidth. If you are spending your entire mental budget on simply lapping at some speed, you won't have any brain power left over to deal with emergencies or unusual situations. I have interviewed drivers coming off track whose eyes were quite glazed over. They had overloaded their ability to process information.

    3. Be predictable, especially in mixed-class race groups. Hold your line. Don't suddenly change your line, thinking that it will allow faster cars to pass. They saw you before you saw them, and they most likely made a plan based on your trajectory. Don't surprise them.

    4. Make a plan. Be ready for the unexpected or unusual. What will you do if the car in front spins after you have committed to a turn? What if you lose oil pressure? Are you even checking the oil pressure? In the moment, it will be too late to think about what to do. It's better to have thought scenarios through in advance, and to be ready.

    5. Obey the Rules of the Road. Read section 6.8.1 of the GCR (or page 12 of the Portable Driver's Advisor). The rules for on-course conduct are really quite simple. They boil down to seven words: 'No Contact', 'No Blocking', and 'Leave Racing Room'. Please remember that 'incidental contact' does not exist anywhere in the rules.

    6. In a spin? Both feet in. I continue to be amazed at how many drivers forget this simple rule from drivers school. Almost every month, I see a collision caused by a driver failing to keep the brakes on when spinning, reaching the top of some slope, and then rolling back into traffic.

    7. Do you have an exit strategy? Practice getting out of your racecar with your eyes closed. If it catches fire, you will have a short time in which to get out and possibly little visibility. Can you get out in 6 or 7 seconds? After you crash, it will be too late to practice. Also, did you arm your fire system before going on track? Make that part of your pre-session checklist.

    8. Work on your decision-making skills. I see a wide variety of bad outcomes. Yet virtually all of them fit in the bucket labeled 'Poor Choices'. Ask yourself, does the gain justify the risk in making this move? Can I achieve the same result by waiting till the next turn or the next lap, or by taking a different approach? Is this really a good idea? So often, I see incidents which have everyone asking, "What was he thinking?"


    I hope this series has been interesting and informative. I'll look forward to seeing you at the track.

    Good feedback... I have a weird problem.. Sometimes I get so relaxed racing that I lose focus. How to keep the edge up? Faster car?

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    CT/NY/NJ
    Posts
    1,157

    Default

    awesome stuff! thank you!
    Chris Rallo "the kid"
    -- "wrenching and racing" -- "will race for food!" -- "Onward and Upward"

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Rockaway, NJ
    Posts
    1,548

    Default

    Spinetti - Remind yourself this can kill you when you start to mentally drift - that will grab your attention. Focus on each and every corner, think about each shift, prepare and move your body with precision and purpose.
    BenSpeed
    #33 ITR Porsche 968
    BigSpeed Racing
    2013 ITR Pro IT Champion
    2014 NE Division ITR Champion

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    7,381

    Default

    Now that all seven of these are "stickied" to the top, they're taking up a good bit of real estate, almost all the screen when ones selects the Rules and Regs topc. I am going to work to combine all these into a single thread - maybe even combine all of John's pieces into a single post? - along with all the related discussion. This make create a bit of confusion initially, as responses may seem jumbled, but the topic list needs to be pared down.

    If this creates problems going forward, I can always split them back out again.

    GA

  17. #17

    Default Should I file a protest?

    Something bad happens. Another driver blocks you on course or, worse, punts you, causing damage to your car. Or, you are called to the tower, where a steward informs you that you are being penalized for a pass under yellow.

    You believe that you have been done wrong. What do you do?

    In the latter case, where the steward wants to penalize you, your first step is to discuss it with the steward.

    Having a conversation with a steward who is minded to penalize you is much like being stopped for speeding. When the officer walks up to your car, he (believes that he) has the goods on you. Your best strategy is to give him a reason to let you off with a warning. If he gives you a ticket, you can still reverse it. However, this requires a trip to traffic court, and now the shoe is on the other foot: you have to find a way to reverse the officer's action.

    So it is with a CSA. When you have the interview with the operating steward, your best bet is to persuade him not to penalize you. If he does, you can protest it, but now you are trying to undo something which has been done.

    In the former case or, if the steward goes ahead and penalizes you, one of your options is to file a protest.

    Filing a protest requires a small expenditure of time and effort, and posting a protest fee ($25 for a regional race, $50 for a national). Is it worth doing? The answer, as it is to most questions, is, 'It depends."


    Let's look at some of the reasons why people don't file protests.

    Drivers sometimes tell me that they expressed a desire to protest a penalty, but were advised by 'a steward' that the SOM might increase the penalty if they protested it. Strictly speaking, this is true. The SOM, when reviewing a CSA penalty, can increase it, in addition to upholding it, reducing it, or overturning it. In practice, this happens very seldom. In all the courts on which I have sat, only one CSA penalty was ever increased (and I was Chairman!). Courts almost invariably return the protest fee to the protestor.

    Drivers have also told me that they didn't protest another driver's action because it was pointless; the SOM couldn't order the offending driver to pay for repairs to their car. This, also, is true. When we go on track, we accept that we shall be paying for our own repairs, no matter who caused the damage. (There is a recent Court of Appeals ruling underlining this fact.) Even so, there are benefits to protesting. By doing so, you help establish a paper trail around the offending driver. Over time, penalties can become more severe as courts see the same bad boy again and again. Contrariwise, if a court hammers someone who has a bad reputation but no formal history, the penalty can be (and has been) overturned on appeal.

    Drivers have also told me that they believe that the court (the SOM at the event) would not give them a fair hearing. I am not endorsing this view; I am simply reporting a perception.

    Finally, drivers tell me that filing a protest simply isn't worth the time and effort it takes. On some level, that's your call. It depends how valuable it is to you to try to correct what you believe to be a wrong.


    Now, let's now look at some of the reasons why you might file a protest.

    First, and foremost, it might be the 'right' thing to do. You may have evidence or a rule citation which justifies overturning your penalty or penalizing another driver.

    Second, as noted above, it can contribute to a paper trail on the offending driver. Over time, this record will contribute to ever more severe penalties.

    Third, there may be some psychic benefit in fighting back. Nobody likes to feel like they are being victimized, nor that they are putting up with it.

    Finally, even though you may lose at the SOM stage, filing a protest preserves your standing in the matter, and gives you the right to appeal the SOM ruling.


    In conclusion, it seems to me that that there are several factors to consider when contemplating a protest. Do you believe that you have been done wrong? Do you have some evidence and/or rule upon which to base a protest? What do you hope to achieve by protesting? Are you willing to invest a couple of hours in the effort? These should guide you toward an answer which is correct for you.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •