Is $350 for a single day regional a record?

[lateapex911]

One of the issues with Lime Rock is it's location. Sure, it's got history, it's a challenging little bullring, it's pretty and all that, but unlike every other track on Daves list, it's just over an hour from the edge of the NYC metro area, one of the biggest populations in America.

NHMP is nearly 4 hours towing, the Glen is about 5, NJMP is 3, (or a LOT more if you come from east of the Hudson or north of the city), Pocono is 3 (but very undesirable from nearly every standpoint), and Summit is 5.

So, LRP means less towing and gas for the NCY metro area racer. And less time. On top of that, many families prefer Dad to be home during the weekend, and as there is no racing on Sunday, Dad can head up Friday night and be home for Sunday with the kids. Of course, it costs more, because Skip either has handled the finances badly, or he knows what he has, or both.

(IIRC, he bought the place in the late 80s/90s. He no longer owns the school, but had made the school a "sweet" rental contract with the track, perhaps to entice buyers with a juicy balance sheet. Rumour had it that the lack of cash from the school coming in as rental forced other prices up. Only Skip probably knows for sure.)

Until Palmer is online (assuming our agreement is financially better than LRP), we'll be looking at high rentals and events that struggle to break even. I'd assume the regions are trying to weather the storm until the Palmer option is really there before getting too agessive with schedule changes.

One thing I do know, is that the entire situation is more complex than we probably are aware of. I've attended NER Competition Board meetings, and I was impressed with the decisions being made and the "between a rock and a hard place" nature of the situation.

[mossaidis]

This is a caffiene induced question and I have NOT done the research lately - will monticello ever be available to SCCA? I believe NASA will be or has raced there already.

[CRallo]

shut up and drive!

[Bill Umstead]

My ramble...

I agree with much of what has been stated in this thread. However, due to its convenient location, LRP still is a favored track. I can get there and back home in a little more than one hour each way. Apparently a lot of the posters also have this feeling.

Why don't we in the NE have more early DS to get newbie racers out for the season. I have a newbie driver coming for the Friday school (so I will run Saturday) but he can't get another school until the October Glen Region event (which apparently is their "biggest loser"). He could not do the NJMP event in April. Could we get more entries if we graduated more racers earlier in the season?

I agee that there is too much supply for the current demand. I also run HRG and due to the issue with getting separate track time at SCCA Regional events, we cut our schedule dramatically for this season. We used to be able to put 20-25 cars on track.We weren't getting sufficient entries in the last couple of years to make the regions interested in giving us a separate run group. Hopefully, fewer events this year will equate to larger HRG car counts. We'll see.

For all of the smaller regions, we really need to band together on these events. I thought last week's NNJR event (T&T/Regional) was a good value at $515. I got 1.5 hr track time on Friday and damn good racing on Saturday. And did not have to stay in a local hotel which would have cost a couple of bucks. But car counts were down, with only three run groups for the T&T (about 75-80 cars total(?)) Firday, and only 145 entries for Saturday. Not a winning proposition for NNJR.

As for Pocono, few people like it, but it is close for us in NY and NJ, reasonably cheap, and if the region would run the two configurations like they did a few years back, it might even be interesting (sorta like the long and short course at WGI).

My .02

See some of you on the 20th.

Bill Umstead

[raffaelli]

This is a caffiene induced question and I have NOT done the research lately - will monticello ever be available to SCCA? I believe NASA will be or has raced there already.

I have asked them this questions a few times. I never really got an answer.

[Seabee]

You guys who are blaming Skip need to talk to Bob Zecca about the finances of the track and what is profitable and why. He has many contraints.

Vote with your wallets. 3 Regionals at LRP is WAY to much. I am not sure how many times we have to tell the PTB's this. I'll say this again:

Too much supply for the current demand (which is not bad BTW). Pull back supply and watch average car counts and event profitablity rise and entry fees fall.

I bleed SCCA red and NER yellow...but until the organizers realize they are doing it to themselves, they put the regions at risk.

Andy B., you mention we have too much supply. I count the following at New Hampshire: 1 school, 1 National, 1 Pro-IT, 1 Enduro, and 10 Regionals. So why is 4 races and 1 school at LRP too much?

[gran racing]

It's too much supply amoung all the tracks that are reasonable options for us. Maybe it means cut 3 NHIS races (or what ever) and keep LRP as-is.

[Doc Bro]

Andy B., you mention we have too much supply. I count the following at New Hampshire: 1 school, 1 National, 1 Pro-IT, 1 Enduro, and 10 Regionals. So why is 4 races and 1 school at LRP too much?

Because LRP gives much less "bang for the buck", actually not even close. Don't look at the LRP events in a vacuum add them to the 10 ++ NHIS events, plus the POC, and Glen and NJMP.....see. LRP 's 4 may not seem like a lot but on top of an already full schedule it is. When you marry those 4 with the cost/amount of track time ratio....it's a no-brainer. While LRP has it's merits (I don't think that's argue-able) if you had a dead foot you'd cut it off right, otherwise it'd kill the whole body.

Plus this year there is a vigorous Pro-IT schedule which has served to pull in some #'s to sparse events it has also removed some #'s from regionals as well. There are manby guys who are viewing Pro-IT as it's own series (the exact opposite of what it's intended to be).

Look at it this way if there were only 5 events a year (1 at each of our "in region" tracks) what would the car counts look like? HUGE....the exact opposite of what we currently have.

R

[dickita15]

It's too much supply amoung all the tracks that are reasonable options for us. Maybe it means cut 3 NHIS races (or what ever) and keep LRP as-is.

There are 5 regional weekends at NHMS. As I said in the other thread the NH races are similar to the Marrs races at Summit in that it is a mostly self contained series. There is much less crossover than one would guess. It looks like about 20% between those two tracks. IMHO cutting NH races would not make much of a difference in LRP entries.
Lime Rock has three regionals this year and they were scheduled last fall. Should there be only two, maybe yes but you have to weigh not only the current economy but the long term as well.
Two answer a previous question our deal with Palmer gives SCCA 5 loud weekends, so maybe one national and 4 regionals.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy B., you mention we have too much supply. I count the following at New Hampshire: 1 school, 1 National, 1 Pro-IT, 1 Enduro, and 10 Regionals. So why is 4 races and 1 school at LRP too much?

Good question Steve. Rob did a good job but I will add this:

*I* look at the whole NARRC schedule, drop the schools and most of the Pro IT (because the schools are not targeted at us and the Pro IT usually run INSIDE event weekends so they are a double dip opportunity) and see what I have.

I have a meeting with a person from NER soon and here is what he is going to say: "Yes we have a lot of events at NHMS, but they all make money..." Meaning there is enough demand at each of those races to sustain the dates and run a good program.

Now add in LRP 3 times. No doubles, high entry fees - low value when compared to NHMS, WGI, NJMP - and probably Palmer when it comes on line. If LRP pulls from the Tri-state area, has some great history, and arguably a WAY better track than NHMS...why do the events lose money?

I submit again that members have many other choices that provide them with better value. NJMP can be expensive but they can do a weekend 'Triple'. NER hosts doubles and triples at NHMS for well under $300. So while we have too many choices, that is a loaded statement. We have too many 'good' choices that hurt the participation at a track with low value. It's just the natural evolution of a competitive environment that is taking effect. Now the issue to ME is that we hang on to these LRP dates with white knuckles and don't realize that money losers are dumb and dangerous - especially when the historical data is there to tell you that you will be literally 'risking it all'. And it's not a 'high risk, high reward'...it's 'high risk, no reward'.

I love Lime Rock. So do many people. I would run there 5 times a year. But I believe there is demand enough for us to be there twice a year (Regionally - since WE are only regional, I can't speak for the National guys). Once for a school and single - and once for the only really realiable event of the year, the NARRC Runoffs. And I am fully willing to admit that I could be wrong.......we may only have enough demand for that value-proposition once a year.

At some point we have to admit that Lime Rock is what it is. People have been voting with their wallets for a good few years now...I HATE to see hard working and well intentioned volunteers take a beating on these events but I do feel the writing has been on the wall. We as drivers need to advise them on what to do. We either need to rally and support what we want to keep, or we need to take a bullet for the betterment of the entire system.

[Seabee]

Andy. Thanks, I think this is a healthy discussion for everyone to chime in.

I don't understand the low car count at LRP and the success of NHMS. They are equal hauls for me but I rarely put NHMS on my schedule. A combination of car set-up, hard on equipment and I don't care for the layout. But it works for a lot of people and makes money so that would be difficult to argue.

Maybe the lack of doubles at LRP have an effect. Can a solo event be run on the skid pad-go kart area concurrently with a regional?

I fall into the category of a limited schedule and not chasing points. So I haul to WGI three times a year and pay 250 for a 3 session test day before a regional.

And if we talk about bank for the buck. Why has the 12-hour dropped off. Not long ago there were lotteries, etc where it was full in minutes. Not sure what the entry is but most likely less than $100 per hour.

So is it simply a matter of economy and we must ride it out or is there a fundamental issue with the SCCA program?

[Greg Amy]

At some point we have to admit that Lime Rock is what it is. People have been voting with their wallets for a good few years now...

+eleventybillion.

Lime Rock is, simply put, too expensive for SCCA Club Racing, given the existing demand. Let them have their country club, and we'll go play on the "public courses". - GA

[Greg Amy]

So is it simply a matter of economy and we must ride it out or is there a fundamental issue with the SCCA program?

Steven, the rental prices at LRP have climbed substantially over the last 10 years. A decade ago - when Skip needed the income - I think we were there for $25k-30k a weekend? Since then Skip has - rightly so - recognized the value of the place and priced it accordingly; today it's 750 c-notes to go play. No one should fault him for maximizing his income; if you or I had it we'd be doing the same. Skip owes nothing to SCCA and vice-versa, it's purely a business relationship.

As such, there are not enough SCCA racers willing to pony up the funds to go race there to cover the costs. Notice: Club. Unless we find some sugar-daddy willing to "sponsor" SCCA Regional events (for what return on that investment?), the entry fees must cover costs to sustain ourselves long-term. Figure eight groups, max 30 (?) per group, means 240 racers paying the way. Divide that into $75k and you get just over $300. But, given we rarely max out all groups (wings and things rarely fill up, and Big Bore is a big bore), I'd say we're looking at an average group size of less than 20, meaning an average cost per racer of $470. And, as we can see from the original post and from the car counts this weekend at $350, that's just not going to happen. Hell, NNJR only had 149 online entries at en entry fee of $290!

Revenue must equal or exceed costs to stay in biz...

Ergo, it's apparent that there's not enough racers out there willing to pay the costs to play at Skip's country club. If we only had one event per year at LRP to choose from (make it the once-a-year NARRC Runoffs, a-la IT Fest and ARRC) you might get enough interest to break even. But when there's three weekends there to choose from you're going to never make expenses...

GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

Maybe the lack of doubles at LRP have an effect.

This points directly to VALUE. If we could race on Friday at LRP (only qualifying or practice is allowed on Fridays, nothing on Sundays), we could have a traditional double or a creative triple there for the same money!

Many are with you on the LRP vs. NHMS issue...but people also want to race so they choose the velue with the most to offer.

[Ed Funk]

?Qual Fri. am for Sat am race. Qual Fri. pm for Sat pm race? Seems that I remember something like that from the days when we discovered that tires made from rubber were faster?

[Andy Bettencourt]

?Qual Fri. am for Sat am race. Qual Fri. pm for Sat pm race? Seems that I remember something like that from the days when we discovered that tires made from rubber were faster?

It's a great format but nobody seems to use it.

[Seabee]

Some other items for thought. Why are the wings & big bore counts down? I would guess that entry fees are the minor expense to their program versus let say SM where entry and tires are the majority.

NNJR had 38+/- SM entries last week.

Maybe one weekend (Sat) at LRP should be set up like the IT fest so a region can make or break even and we can still keep a LRP data alive.

From what it sounds the current math is not making it for SCCA at LRP so either some change is made or it will most likely go away.

And more on the value/dollar issue. I attend the test days at LRP for around $225 for 5-20 minute sessions. And car counts are ususally low.

[Doc Bro]

?Qual Fri. am for Sat am race. Qual Fri. pm for Sat pm race? Seems that I remember something like that from the days when we discovered that tires made from rubber were faster?

Problem is that alot of guys don't want to take a day off to qualify. If your self- employed like me no work, no pay. So in reality for some it makes the entry fee even more expensive.

R

[lateapex911]

Yup- The no racing on Sunday thing at Lime Rock makes a tough situation even harder.

And Skip plays hardball,..I think, but could be wrong...that he won't rent out the "loud" weekend date unless you buy Friday AND Saturday. But...no racing on Friday. ;(

So, no matter what, a region is on the hook for $70K.
IF we could get Sat only for half that, it would make financial sense. Doc Bro points out the advantage of the one day Sat regional. No time from work on Friday. Or Thurs night. Lots of companies are cool with leaving early on a Friday in the summer, So it works...bust out early Fri afternoon, bang out a quick regional and hit the beach with the kids on Sunday. If only we could do it for $35K instead of $70K.

So, what to do with the Friday is the tricky part. PDX, Schools and test days look like they are good options, but it seems like they aren't "good enough".

[BruceG]

+eleventybillion.

Lime Rock is, simply put, too expensive for SCCA Club Racing, given the existing demand. Let them have their country club, and we'll go play on the "public courses". - GA

Moot point....but if it weren't for SCCA regional races over the years LRP wouldn't exist today!