12 hours of Nelson

[RSTPerformance]

Best of luck to competitors on a successfull weekend and the region on a successfull event.

Unfortunatly we have been turned away because our driver/car owner can't run on his novice permit. We are all very disapointed (and I am turned off, posibly forever) because of this. We were able to get this novice into SCCA racing with excitement to do endurance races (this race and Summit are challenges we have wanted to do for years) and now to get tuned away from an event that seems to be strugling for entraints is a real bummer.

I don't understand why a novice permit isn't good enough for this regional race, especially on a team that has been racing in SCCA for as long as we have been. I never liked the National/Regional thing, and I really don't like this. We should be trying to help members get into the racing they are interested in, not turning them away...

Additionaly if the organizers don't think a school is good enough to sign someone off to run a regional event then we need re evaluate our schools.

Raymond "spending my limited money to race at Lime Rock in the PRO-IT instead" Blethen

[joeg]

Raymond--A bit harsh? Cripes, you know the rules...racing on a Novice Permit??

[Greg Amy]

I'd be a bit concerned letting (hell, even encouraging) someone enter an enduro on a Novice Permit. Yeah, I'm all over the "but it's only 1-2-3 races of experience difference" argument; hell, I think I even invented that debate. But while it's only 1, 2, 3 races differences, it's those first few critical races on the extremely steep part of the learning curve. Dropping someone with minimal competition experience into an environment totally foreign to what you get in a regular SCCA school or sprint weekend is probably not a good thing.

And, to be consistent, I'm also not happy with allowing Novice Permits into key high-vis, high-stress races such as the ARRC and IT*Fest. And this, coming from someone whose first race back after 9 years was the OMP Challenge at LRP...

Endurance racing is a whole 'nother animal, one that requires a totally different set of skills, themselves dependent on basic experiences/assumptions. I understand your frustration, Raymond, but I personally have to agree with the decision. And I suspect if you really think about it objectively, you would too... - GA

[cjb25hs]

Not sure where the owner of the car is from, but if he is close to you why not get a few races in before the 12 hr. Looks like there is a double at NHMS this weekend and then one at WGI and at LRP. Get two races under his belt and get his book signed off and problem solved.

[StephenB]

I actually agree with Raymond which isn't all that often And not just because I was going to be a co-driver... I have not competed in a 12 hr race so I can't specifically speek to that length of a race, nor can I speak to racing at speed at night however I have run in a 9 lap sprint race and a 3 hr race both at the glen. I have also raced in the ARRC and the 3 hr at Atlanta. In BOTH situations the sprint race had TONS more happening. People are less patient in passing and lapping. In a sprint race you cannot wait like you can in an endurance race. Endurance racing to me has always been more about consistancy and patience. Sprint racing uses the same concept but time is not on your side. I also think that for a novice to race WITH drivers that have licenses would be a great experience for them and help them learn all aspects of racing wheel to wheel. (I agree that a team of 3 novices who have never raced probably shouldn't run a race that requires fueling and pit stops) As a driver I would rather race against a novice in an endurance race than the 12 lap IT race at LRP in a few weeks. I am posititve that the LRP race will not give a novice as much experience in 12 laps and it will be a much more stressfull situation for them.

As I said before I haven't run a 12 Hr enduro so I would love to hear a reason why anyone thinks it's not a great idea. I personally (honestly) thought that running in enduros was a great way to get some of our crew members on track and encourage them to become more active SCCA members.

Greg, what is "totally different" that makes it a bad idea? (Not an attack I honestly don't know)

cjb25hs, great idea but the entire purpose for us to do this was to share the expense and to get our friend LOTS of track time and experience. The expense involved in running a double race is at lest 50% of what 1 driver would have spent at the 12hr. So yes Cost is a big reason he can't do this. NHMS is to close... starts tomorrow and the supps didn't come out for the 12 hr until this week. I did post about the Glen double but that counts as 1 race because it is 1 sanction # unless he did the regional and the pro-It but that cost is more than the 12Hr would be for him! I also think that running a 12 lap race at LRP is not going to be a good 1st race to race in along with the Pro-It that same day. However we have not ruled this out and we are contemplating the additional GRAND that this will cost us.

In the end Rules are rules, I understand Raymonds frustration and the most we can hope for is for some good dialogue on Real reasons this was a bad idea and then the "powers that be" can then decide for future events.

Thanks, and Raymond chilll dude JK
Stephen

[Bill Miller]

Tough call on this one. Raymond, I'd say that if your friend has no races on his novice permit (just his schools), that Greg is right, a 12-hr endurance race is not the place for him to start. It could be a larger field than he's seen before, and it will certainly have a wider range of cars (classes) and driver talent than he's seen before. Get him a couple of Regionals under his belt before hand. I know there's added cost associated with it, but the experience will be invaluable.

joeg,

In Raymond's defense, the supps were just issued. I don't believe all endurance races restrict those on Novice permits.

What's a bit out of wack w/ the licensing structure in my mind, is that you can pretty much run any car that you want. You can rent some guy's ITC car for your schools and get signed off on, and then go jump in a GT1 or a FA, and start running Regionals. Not that it happens all that often, but I don't believe that there's anything the GCR that prevents it. I know I'd sure be concerned if I saw rookie stripes on a FA or a GT1 car.

[MMiskoe]

I have never liked seeing novice permits at longer races. When I've signed up to go do a 12 or 24 hour race there is so much more riding on my stints than for a 20 minute sprint. In a sprint any mistake will cost you, but there aren't 2 or 3 other drivers waiting in the pitlane to get a turn, nor are there 5 to 10 guys who gave up their weekend (and then some) to come help change tires & fuel the car. There are enough ways to damage the car just by dropping a wheel off the track, you don't need help from others. You certainly don't need inexperience to add to the mix.

Sprint races don't have pit stops and driver changes which put a driver out in a hot car but perhaps w/ questionable conditions mid race.

Sprint races don't have 120 minute stints, 10+ different classes of cars together (think ITC vrs some ITE monster), dark, weather that goes from dry to downpour to dry in a single stint, cars that handle different when full of fuel vrs empty. The list goes on.

Go look up the Car & Driver review of what they did in an MX-5 last year the Nelson 24 hour and then ask yourself if novice drivers make sense.

The licesnsing process leaves a little to be desired in some cases. Just because you've gotten through 2 days of school means bupkis at times. Maybe I'm self centered but I'd rather have people learn at a race where their exposure is smaller.

Yes it sucks to have your plan changed, but you should be able to find another driver.

Matt