12 hours of Nelson

[cjb25hs]

Not sure where the owner of the car is from, but if he is close to you why not get a few races in before the 12 hr. Looks like there is a double at NHMS this weekend and then one at WGI and at LRP. Get two races under his belt and get his book signed off and problem solved.

[StephenB]

I actually agree with Raymond which isn't all that often And not just because I was going to be a co-driver... I have not competed in a 12 hr race so I can't specifically speek to that length of a race, nor can I speak to racing at speed at night however I have run in a 9 lap sprint race and a 3 hr race both at the glen. I have also raced in the ARRC and the 3 hr at Atlanta. In BOTH situations the sprint race had TONS more happening. People are less patient in passing and lapping. In a sprint race you cannot wait like you can in an endurance race. Endurance racing to me has always been more about consistancy and patience. Sprint racing uses the same concept but time is not on your side. I also think that for a novice to race WITH drivers that have licenses would be a great experience for them and help them learn all aspects of racing wheel to wheel. (I agree that a team of 3 novices who have never raced probably shouldn't run a race that requires fueling and pit stops) As a driver I would rather race against a novice in an endurance race than the 12 lap IT race at LRP in a few weeks. I am posititve that the LRP race will not give a novice as much experience in 12 laps and it will be a much more stressfull situation for them.

As I said before I haven't run a 12 Hr enduro so I would love to hear a reason why anyone thinks it's not a great idea. I personally (honestly) thought that running in enduros was a great way to get some of our crew members on track and encourage them to become more active SCCA members.

Greg, what is "totally different" that makes it a bad idea? (Not an attack I honestly don't know)

cjb25hs, great idea but the entire purpose for us to do this was to share the expense and to get our friend LOTS of track time and experience. The expense involved in running a double race is at lest 50% of what 1 driver would have spent at the 12hr. So yes Cost is a big reason he can't do this. NHMS is to close... starts tomorrow and the supps didn't come out for the 12 hr until this week. I did post about the Glen double but that counts as 1 race because it is 1 sanction # unless he did the regional and the pro-It but that cost is more than the 12Hr would be for him! I also think that running a 12 lap race at LRP is not going to be a good 1st race to race in along with the Pro-It that same day. However we have not ruled this out and we are contemplating the additional GRAND that this will cost us.

In the end Rules are rules, I understand Raymonds frustration and the most we can hope for is for some good dialogue on Real reasons this was a bad idea and then the "powers that be" can then decide for future events.

Thanks, and Raymond chilll dude JK
Stephen

[Bill Miller]

Tough call on this one. Raymond, I'd say that if your friend has no races on his novice permit (just his schools), that Greg is right, a 12-hr endurance race is not the place for him to start. It could be a larger field than he's seen before, and it will certainly have a wider range of cars (classes) and driver talent than he's seen before. Get him a couple of Regionals under his belt before hand. I know there's added cost associated with it, but the experience will be invaluable.

joeg,

In Raymond's defense, the supps were just issued. I don't believe all endurance races restrict those on Novice permits.

What's a bit out of wack w/ the licensing structure in my mind, is that you can pretty much run any car that you want. You can rent some guy's ITC car for your schools and get signed off on, and then go jump in a GT1 or a FA, and start running Regionals. Not that it happens all that often, but I don't believe that there's anything the GCR that prevents it. I know I'd sure be concerned if I saw rookie stripes on a FA or a GT1 car.

[MMiskoe]

I have never liked seeing novice permits at longer races. When I've signed up to go do a 12 or 24 hour race there is so much more riding on my stints than for a 20 minute sprint. In a sprint any mistake will cost you, but there aren't 2 or 3 other drivers waiting in the pitlane to get a turn, nor are there 5 to 10 guys who gave up their weekend (and then some) to come help change tires & fuel the car. There are enough ways to damage the car just by dropping a wheel off the track, you don't need help from others. You certainly don't need inexperience to add to the mix.

Sprint races don't have pit stops and driver changes which put a driver out in a hot car but perhaps w/ questionable conditions mid race.

Sprint races don't have 120 minute stints, 10+ different classes of cars together (think ITC vrs some ITE monster), dark, weather that goes from dry to downpour to dry in a single stint, cars that handle different when full of fuel vrs empty. The list goes on.

Go look up the Car & Driver review of what they did in an MX-5 last year the Nelson 24 hour and then ask yourself if novice drivers make sense.

The licesnsing process leaves a little to be desired in some cases. Just because you've gotten through 2 days of school means bupkis at times. Maybe I'm self centered but I'd rather have people learn at a race where their exposure is smaller.

Yes it sucks to have your plan changed, but you should be able to find another driver.

Matt

[RSTPerformance]

Well... I respect everyones thoughts and after much thought I agree that having a novice on a team certainly adds risk to the team, and I would not pay for a ride on a rental if one of the members was a novice, HOWEVER... I don't think that an experienced team should be turned away just because they are willing to give a "novice" a try. An enduro is a great way to get someone into SCCA racing whom wants a good value (track time) for the buck.

I do agree an entire team of novices should not be allowed as they might be a risk to others and/or themselves as a collective group lacking experience. I also might agree that when we have the demand (as a club) that some races of higher level should have some restrictions on experience. I am not aware of any current SCCA races that have full fields though.

Lack of experience in driving alone is NOT a good reason... A sprint race has far more risk/action and people travel just as far and spend just as much money on an entry. I think a novice is more likely to vet in trouble Ina sprint race than an enduro. I hate to say it (and do not keen to degrade or insult) but I think an enduro is more like a super long practice session as a majority of the race most people are just making consistant solid laps, not battling door handle to door handle. Endoros are a TEAM effort not a driver effort.

To me the risk is not on the novice but rather the stewards. The stewards should Be doing thier job and should pull a novice or expirenced driver off the track if they are a hazard. As a steward I have done it, nope it wasn't fun but I agree, safety is number one.

Stereotyping a "novice" as a bad driver is poor business and As I hope someone has realized for the future hurts entries and will not help bring back this or any race to the stature it once had. I would say this if was our friend or not.

Please feel free to continue a debate, I think the people in this region read this and I hope will use the feedback for future events and members... Let's face it by the time another event comes along like this our friend will have a full regional, so my complaining really won't help me, but maybe the next guy.

Raymond "am I way off on this?" Blethen

[Bill Miller]

Well... I respect everyones thoughts and after much thought I agree that having a novice on a team certainly adds risk to the team, and I would not pay for a ride on a rental if one of the members was a novice, HOWEVER... I don't think that an experienced team should be turned away just because they are willing to give a "novice" a try. An enduro is a great way to get someone into SCCA racing whom wants a good value (track time) for the buck.

I do agree an entire team of novices should not be allowed as they might be a risk to others and/or themselves as a collective group lacking experience. I also might agree that when we have the demand (as a club) that some races of higher level should have some restrictions on experience. I am not aware of any current SCCA races that have full fields though.

Lack of experience in driving alone is NOT a good reason... A sprint race has far more risk/action and people travel just as far and spend just as much money on an entry. I think a novice is more likely to vet in trouble Ina sprint race than an enduro. I hate to say it (and do not keen to degrade or insult) but I think an enduro is more like a super long practice session as a majority of the race most people are just making consistant solid laps, not battling door handle to door handle. Endoros are a TEAM effort not a driver effort.

To me the risk is not on the novice but rather the stewards. The stewards should Be doing thier job and should pull a novice or expirenced driver off the track if they are a hazard. As a steward I have done it, nope it wasn't fun but I agree, safety is number one.

Stereotyping a "novice" as a bad driver is poor business and As I hope someone has realized for the future hurts entries and will not help bring back this or any race to the stature it once had. I would say this if was our friend or not.

Please feel free to continue a debate, I think the people in this region read this and I hope will use the feedback for future events and members... Let's face it by the time another event comes along like this our friend will have a full regional, so my complaining really won't help me, but maybe the next guy.

Raymond "am I way off on this?" Blethen

Raymond,

On one hand, you say 'safety is number one', but on the other you mention how races don't have full fields. It sounds as if you would be willing to compromise safety in the interest of filling the field. If that's not what you meant, I apologize for putting words in your mouth, but that's the way it comes across.

And there are restrictions on driver experience at every National race. No National license, you don't race. I don't agree w/ the National / Regional license distinction, but it's there. And who would you consider to be more experienced, someone that runs 2 races a year, just to keep their license, or someone that runs 8, 10, 12, or more races a year?

I think maybe you're a bit too close to this issue, and seem to have lost a bit of your objectivity. I also disagree w/ your assessment that an endurance race is 'one long practice session'. Sure, consistency is key, as is not using up the car too soon, but when you've got people that are still on the same lap, after 12+ hours of racing, I think that's a bit more than casually clicking off laps.

To me, having someone with no racing experience on a long (12+ hour) endurance team, is a real baptism by fire. As Matt pointed out, you're throwing a LOT more at them than they saw in school. You could just as easily overwhelm them, and turn them off to racing.

This comment has me scratching my head.

I would not pay for a ride on a rental if one of the members was a novice,

I thought you had said that your friend w/ the novice permit was the car owner for the car that you were going to run @ Nelson. Are you guys not paying for that ride?