Wheel width, ITB, again

[Greg Amy]

Greg - don't know the definition of reasonable but look here:

I'd call those "reasonable". Not "optimal", of course; "optimal" would be 14x6, 8# wheels for $99 each .

Thanks!

[jjjanos]

But the argument against, and it's a good one, is that people who already own multiple sets of narrower wheels than they could fit will feel that THEIR investment in wheels is now for naught. And they are right, wider *is* better, even for the same size tire, in most cases. It's a tough pickle. Sometimes leaving well enough alone is the best answer, since we are not starting from scratch.

1. We didn't leave well enough alone. We moved cars to classes with smaller maximum wheel sizes.
2. We demanded that they confirm to these arbitrary limits without any justification other than some absurd belief that allowing spec line differences would institute rules creep.

The rules were established to serve the purpose of the category. We are are beginning to reverse the causality and the category is beginning to, little by little, serve the purposes of the rules.

[shwah]

I'd call those "reasonable". Not "optimal", of course; "optimal" would be 13x6, 8# wheels for $99 each .

Thanks!

Fixed

[924Guy]

I'd call those "reasonable". Not "optimal", of course; "optimal" would be 14x6, 8# wheels for $99 each .

Thanks!

I'll take mine in 15x6... will even let 'em go up to 10#

jjanos's reply here makes it sound like everything's gone to crap once we started moving a coupla cars. I really don't think it's that bad. Maybe things could be further slightly improved, but we're still far better off than when we started!!!

Given the choice between keeping wide wheels and staying in A, waiting for CRX's to run me over... or moving to B, buying all different wheels, and actually being competitive... well, I guess I already made my choice, and I ain't goin' back!!! :026:

[ekim952522000]

It sounds kinda like I am in the minority on this one but I think the 6" wheels and the small tires they require are what keep ITB so cheap...

[lateapex911]

1. We didn't leave well enough alone. We moved cars to classes with smaller maximum wheel sizes.
2. We demanded that they confirm to these arbitrary limits without any justification other than some absurd belief that allowing spec line differences would institute rules creep.

The rules were established to serve the purpose of the category. We are are beginning to reverse the causality and the category is beginning to, little by little, serve the purposes of the rules.

Classic overstatement and blowing things out of proportion.

1- "Well enough" had MANY competitors crying and moaning that come hell or high water, or even Roger Penske himself, their cars were not ITA cars, and when they were moved, dances of joy occurred simultaneously around America. It was NOT "well enough". Most were only too thrilled to source some new rims,.....and actually be competitive. Overall MANY were helped. Of those, a small percentage were adversley affected enough to raise the flag, such as this example.

2- "Absurd belief"? Too much spicy food for lunch? No, it has been determined that a large number of existing stakeholders have already invested in significant holdings in the proper wheels, and it makes NO sense for THEM to be punished so that one or two new entrants might find life easier.

Really, it's as simple as that. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Is it that hard to understand????????


Sheeesh.

I feel the plight of the shoestring budget guys who are hurt by this, and as I said a temporary measure that would help would be dual classification. It was discussed when the cars were moved, and some on the ITAC supported it, others not, and to my recollection, at that point in time, our CRB liason suggested that he doubted it was something the CRB would want to see, except in extremely rare cases, such as the BMW E36. Not my call, but that's the way it goes. Perhaps now the feeling has changed, but obviously, it's too little too late for the moved cars, who have been there for years.

[Greg Amy]

...I think the 6" wheels and the small tires they require are what keep ITB so cheap...

Actually, 15x7 stuff may be "cheaper".

Tires are a tad cheaper for 14"; for example a 205/50-15 Hoosier R6 retails for $210 versus a 205/55-14 (same circumference) retails for $197. But, if you went with 15x6 wheels then there's no savings in tires.

Plus, the popularity of 15x7 wheels means you have a lot more opportunity for better wheels at a lower price: 15x7 Enkei RFP-1 wheels at 9 pounds each can be had for $200 each, but they offer nothing in 14x6 or 15x6. Chris' examples above show you "can" get reasonable-weight wheels -- but not "optimal weight" at 9 pounds -- at a "reasonable" price -- but not $200 each. You can do that in 15x7.

Yeah, if you went 14x6 then in the long run you'll come out ahead cost-wise in tire savings, but if ultimate performance at a reasonable price is your goal (well, you "can" buy 14x6, 9# Volks for $450 each, but I don't think anyone would call that "reasonable") then you can't get there with 14x6 (or 15x6).

Let's face it: especially with Spec Miata in the ring, 15x7 is where it's at right now...go "there" and your options increase exponentially. - GA

[jjjanos]

1- "Well enough" had MANY competitors crying and moaning that come hell or high water, or even Roger Penske himself, their cars were not ITA cars, and when they were moved, dances of joy occurred simultaneously around America. It was NOT "well enough". Most were only too thrilled to source some new rims,.....and actually be competitive. Overall MANY were helped. Of those, a small percentage were adversley affected enough to raise the flag, such as this example.

Hmmmm... I recall the majority of comments consisting of bitching and moaning related to (select ala carte)
1. I like running with ITA, don't move me
2. I was happy moving, but not at this weight
3. I was happy moving, but not if I can't afford to put wheels on the car
4. Who cares? I was uncompetive in ITA and I'll be uncompetitive as a fat pig of an ITB car.

2- "Absurd belief"? Too much spicy food for lunch? No, it has been determined that a large number of existing stakeholders have already invested in significant holdings in the proper wheels, and it makes NO sense for THEM to be punished so that one or two new entrants might find life easier.

Yes- absurd belief. The ITAC didn't have to do a GDF thing to the existing stakeholders. The only thing the ITAC had to do was put in a spec line allowance for the cars they moved. Instead, they cling to some absurd limitation on wheel size uniformity that shouldn't have been there in the first place and the reason for this was "rules creep".

[RexRacer19]

A cheap, light 14X6 wheel? It exists.

http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/Wheel...All&sort=Brand

9.3 lbs
$120 each

I bought two sets when they were at #105. I realize they are not going to work for everyone, but Tire Rack has tons of wheels in 14" sizes that would work for most cars. There are some DIRT cheap 15 poundish wheels on there.

[Andy Bettencourt]

The 15x7 Spec Miata overflow only applies to those who can run 4x100.

If we can agree that the wider allowance will increase performance, then yes, we are 'forcing' people to upgrade just to keep there current grid spot eveything else being equal. It will COST the majority for the BENEFIT of a handful.

I think we can agree that it IS the philosophy to COST the few for the BENEFIT of the majority, should the situation arise.

JJJ's observations and reasons ring true - except that the MR2, Charger, etc moves were BORN FROM member requests.

[Knestis]

Depends on one's definition of "forced." I hear from people all the time complaining that (whatever change) has "forced" them to (do whatever) in order to maintain their current level of competitiveness.

K

[Greg Amy]

The 15x7 Spec Miata overflow only applies to those who can run 4x100.

A cheap, light 14X6 wheel? It exists.

See above, T-Rex. Try that same search for '00 Honda Accord 4 cyl (4x114.3 bolt pattern)...Tire Rack has nothing (as in, zero) in 14" at all, nothing in 15x6, the lightest wheels are all 15x7, and all other 15-inchers are 15x6.5....Chris offered some options, but there's nothing in 9# for under $400-ish, leaving, of course, the Honda Accord in a significant position of performance disadvantage (remembering, of course, our prior arguments where saving money is actually a long-term performance advantage...)

So, since we're all making rules on what's best for individuals' selfish interests...how do we resolve this situation...? <yes, I'm grinning...see where I'm going with this...?> - GA

[shwah]

Yeah the only way I can find my way into the 9# neighborhood is going with the not available to everyone 13" options. At that size even the old oem stuff that I dig up is typically 12#, so they are reasonably light. Of course it also helps other aspects of my setup, but wheel and tire weight are a part of the decision for sure.

[jjjanos]

JJJ's observations and reasons ring true - except that the MR2, Charger, etc moves were BORN FROM member requests.

I'm not denying that the inception of the move came from members. I'm just not certain that a majority of the affected drivers were happy about the outcome or really had any say in staying put or moving. Once the numbers were run, the die was cast for adding weight and moving classes.

Personally, keeping the existing size benefits me. I'm much lighter than most of the Germanic euro-tanks and I know whose likely to run out of tire first. I also know, however, that my car would have been parked this season if I had to go out and buy new wheels and losing cars for a season is never good customer service.

[Knestis]

...We demanded that they confirm to these arbitrary limits without any justification other than some absurd belief that allowing spec line differences would institute rules creep. ...

I'm struck by the fact that what you think is "absurd," I (and I daresay some other ITAC members) view as one of the most crucial first principles of the category.

K

[shwah]

I also know, however, that my car would have been parked this season if I had to go out and buy new wheels and losing cars for a season is never good customer service.

Really? A new set of pimpy light wheels = 1 (maybe 2 if they are uber-custom-light) race weekend expenses. You run a short season, or are not being fully truthful. Sure buying 3-4 sets of wheels is very expensive, but I would get a set and go racing if faced with that situation.

EDIT - then I would sell my old stuff and use the proceeds to defray the cost of re-stocking in the correct size.

[Tristan Smith]

So a little off topic, at least off class......

But since we have ITAC members responding here..........why 8.5 wide in ITR? I could have seen 8" or 9", but 8.5" seems odd.

Now, was it because the BMW's that are classed in ITR came stock in many instances with 8.5 widths? Thats great for them, there are a slew of options for their bolt pattern. Not as many for the Nissans, yada yada yada.

Just curious.

Yes I could just buy a set of 17x8 rims, but like it was stated above, I have the "Perception" that I have to have the wider 8.5 rims to be competitive (especially since I am driving the "great white whale", at least weight wise).

[lateapex911]

I'm struck by the fact that what you think is "absurd," I (and I daresay some other ITAC members) view as one of the most crucial first principles of the category.

K

And I'm struck with the feeling that it's nice to pontificate...........

[gran racing]

I also know, however, that my car would have been parked this season if I had to go out and buy new wheels and losing cars for a season is never good customer service.

Look, no one wants to purchase new rims. They just don't have the sex appeal of buying that fancy air intake, doing dyno days, or whatever.

On a few boards some people stated that they weren't happy with having to purchase 6" wide rims related to the ITB move. I found it ironic that those same people also talked about doing dyno days, and buying other performance parts. They were willing to dump money into those areas but not a set of junk yard rims which would be less expensive to become competitive.

Even if 15" rims were the least expensive rims ever made, people who have been running 13" or 14" rims now have their gearing changed. Great, just great. I guess I fail to see how all of this fits into the "best for the class" theory.

[JeffYoung]

I think that is right. I think we were told that some of the Bimmers had 8.5 wide wheels stock, and so we set that as the upper limit.

But, I may be wrong. Things were pretty fluid back then.

So a little off topic, at least off class......

But since we have ITAC members responding here..........why 8.5 wide in ITR? I could have seen 8" or 9", but 8.5" seems odd.

Now, was it because the BMW's that are classed in ITR came stock in many instances with 8.5 widths? Thats great for them, there are a slew of options for their bolt pattern. Not as many for the Nissans, yada yada yada.

Just curious.

Yes I could just buy a set of 17x8 rims, but like it was stated above, I have the "Perception" that I have to have the wider 8.5 rims to be competitive (especially since I am driving the "great white whale", at least weight wise).