Wheel width, ITB, again

[gran racing]

DaveOther cars in ITB are receiving an advantage now as I am runing 20# wheels and more than 50#over weight.

Wait a second. I sympathize with your need to purchase new rims however that statement a bit funny to me. First, you're being moved from a class where the car in a competitive field has absolutely no shot at winning. Now you're moved to a class where you're in a MUCH better position even with those wheels and weight. You also need to keep in mind that you are choosing not to purchase rims. It would be similar to me complaining that almost everything with my car had to be custom built. I can either choose to use the original equipment (Shelby = 6" rims, right?) or spend the money on other better options.

During the ITB impound I pointed out to Jake the Sabb and implications of using fender width to determine maximum wheel sizes. The front fenders (the rear were tweeked a bit) could easily be an additional 3" inches wider than it was. Using the chalk method and with decent tire pressures, I wouldn't be totally surprised if it were an additional 5"s. (It has Hoosier 225s) I also looked a Volvo, plenty of room there too.

[rlward]

Dave, I don't doubt what you say about being able to stuff (6 + 3) 9" wide rims under the Saab. Maybe 11", but I don't thin there is a great supply out ther of those wheel and even then a tire would be a problem. Same with th Volvo. Given the tire sizes run, 7 or 8 is probably optimum.
fitment still better. Maybe a tweak would be all rims the same size. Dos that help anybody?

[gran racing]

There are a few circle track wheel manufactures that would be happy to supply those rims. I sure would give them a try at handling tracks such as Lime Rock Park.

I guess my point is that other than a temporary dual classification, I'm not sure there's an easy answer that will make everyone happy.

[rlward]

There are a few circle track wheel manufactures that would be happy to supply those rims. I sure would give them a try at handling tracks such as Lime Rock Park.

I would like to know of some supplier. All I have found is spinwerks. They have only 4 rims in 6" and are not going to carry any more. $231/each = ouch!

I guess my point is that other than a temporary dual classification, I'm not sure there's an easy answer that will make everyone happy.[/quote]
Is making everyone happy a requirement? or is what is best overall, Maybe 7 in ITB is not the best answer, If there were a good supply of 6" under 15# in every bolt pattern in ITB, there would be no issue at all.

I still think fitment is the best over all answer.

[JoshS]

$231/each = ouch!

I agree that the price sounds expensive for an off-the-shelf 14x6 wheel, but ... still, the price of a couple of sets of those (especially when you consider that you can sell your 7" wheels for SOMETHING) is MUCH MUCH MUCH less than it would have cost you to try to be competitive in ITA. If you are overweight for B, you must have been really really overweight for A!

[quadzjr]

I guess my point is that other than a temporary dual classification, I'm not sure there's an easy answer that will make everyone happy.

What about the idea of you can run the stock wheels that came on your car or being your car came on stock or run an aftermarket wheel up to a width of 6".

That should cover everyone. another option is instead of buyring 230 per wheel.. it would be cheaper to machine weight out of your stock wheels. Even if yo uhad to buy a student version of solidworks to test it.

[Andy Bettencourt]

What about the idea of you can run the stock wheels that came on your car or being your car came on stock or run an aftermarket wheel up to a width of 6".

That should cover everyone. another option is instead of buyring 230 per wheel.. it would be cheaper to machine weight out of your stock wheels. Even if yo uhad to buy a student version of solidworks to test it.

It doesn't cover the OP who got moved from ITA to ITB.

[Greg Amy]

It doesn't cover the OP who got moved from ITA to ITB.

...unless the car originally came with 6" wheels, stock. In that case you're in the "let them eat cake" scenario, same as, for example, a car that's coming in new (not a move) and doesn't have as many wheel options as the current competitors do.

Look, this whole idea of "stock wheels" is a slightly misplaced in context, at least in terms of historical significance. The original intent of the width rules was to minimize expense and maximize parity by setting an outer width limit, loosely based on what was the largest-width available for the cars in that class at the time. In other words, you couldn't have parity by making people stick to stock widths because some came with 5" wheels and some came with 6" wheels, so since many cars came with 6" wheel widths you open it up to 6" wheels for everyone. "Back then" 6"-wide wheels were the shits for cars in this class! Today, not so much the case.

So, if you want to stick to the original intent of the rule, you need to do a survey of all stock wheel widths in the class and find out the largest-stock one and go with that for everyone.

An alternative is what I described prior: ignore what's stock and go with what's best in terms of availability and price to cover the field effectively. That may or may not be coincidental with the suggestion above.

Or, you can just stay pat, and the current ITB and ITC drivers are happy, while others coming in are possibly unhappy (but this doesn't sound like a significant factor among this group). - GA

[quadzjr]

It doesn't cover the OP who got moved from ITA to ITB.

I have another cheap Idea.. buy a set of cheap 14x6 wheels and get them re-drilled.. That is significatnly cheaper than $230 per wheel. This is a cheap expense.. would the OP rather run his car on 7" wheels, that he honestly did not have a chance of a podium finish with a decent field? I know that I personally was excited of the fact that my car was moved to a class where it can be comeptitive.. (ITB MR2) I purchased it as old A car. I told the seller to keep his 15x7" wheels it came with to lower the price of the car to help pay for the 14x6" wheels I had to purchase to make it legal.

I can see where the OP is coming from.. his car was re-classed and now he has to buy new wheels to run legally. I was in the same boat with the car I bought.. so I had to get rid of the wheels and buy a set of 6" wheels. That would kinda erk me if all along a few months ago I could of just kept what what the car came with.

[rlward]

It appears the original intent has lost its way, or some now see an advantage in no change.

If the original intent was to minimize expense then the suggestion of staying with what is readily commercially available is in line with the original intent.
The largest size readily available might prove to be wider than 7" now.

Either use a fitment rule and be done with this thing forever or come up with another stop gap rule and let it resurface every year or so.

[spnkzss]

2. Your car will be allowed to run 7" wheels for two years, and only two years, with additional weight to be determined by the ITAC

K

That sounds logical when Phil states the average race wheel should be replaced every 2 years.

[rlward]

What do you run, spanky?
What would you want WHEN (not if) you get put in ITB?

[lateapex911]

What do you run, spanky?
What would you want WHEN (not if) you get put in ITB?

Why would you say that????

[spnkzss]

What do you run, spanky?
What would you want WHEN (not if) you get put in ITB?

I run a '90 Civic Si, which is "almost" equivalent to the CRX, and have no fears of ever being moved.

But I'll play along for a minute. I would bitch and moan like the rest of the people that got moved. Hope they would allow me to run my wheels for 2 years or allow the whole class to run 7" rims (like I want now, with no dog in the fight). Then buy wheels as needed. Wheels are technically a wear item so I would eventually have to buy new wheels anyways or risk balling the car up when one broke from the constant 1-1.5g's we put on our cars.

[lateapex911]

I run a '90 Civic Si, which is "almost" equivalent to the CRX, and have no fears of ever being moved.

But I'll play along for a minute. I would bitch and moan like the rest of the people that got moved. Hope they would allow me to run my wheels for 2 years or allow the whole class to run 7" rims (like I want now, with no dog in the fight). Then buy wheels as needed. Wheels are technically a wear item so I would eventually have to buy new wheels anyways or risk balling the car up when one broke from the constant 1-1.5g's we put on our cars.

Rob, your scenario just doesn't work, (although you were nice to play along)...because your car is, as you say, a CRX variant, and is quite competitive, in a class structure that has a fixed performance envelope. In other words, there will never be a Ferrari 430 in ITA, forcing out currently competitive cars.

(If that WERE to happen,it would be part of a major restructuring, and ALL the cars in ITA that are trying to beat the CRX (that's like, uh, the entire class) would move and OBVIOUSLY, there would be other global changes and concerns that would occur simultaneously. )

Rodger's claim that you WILL get moved is extremely disingenuous.

Now Rob, I suggest that there could be another situation where you'd be moved. And that would be if you were driving a car that was hopelessly outclassed...and in that case, as in the case of say Dave Gran's Prelude, etc, you'd more than likely be thrilled at your new lease on life, as has been the case in the vast majority of the previous moves.

[shwah]

I wonder how many Golf 3 guys are mad about moving from ITA to ITB?

I doubt any current Rabbit GTI drivers were racing those cars when they were in A...

[Chip42]

ditto the MR2 people - a wonderful car with absolutely no chance of a win in ITA. the rule is 6". works for me.

If I had 16" wheels stock, then I might find a reason to complain. but I know what comes on 16" wheels and is classed in ITB/C and there's really no good reason to build those cars anyhow

[Knestis]

I wonder how many Golf 3 guys are mad about moving from ITA to ITB?

I doubt any current Rabbit GTI drivers were racing those cars when they were in A...

So far as I can figure, only one MkIII was built as an A car, anywhere. One of my very first posts here was asking if it was likely to be competitive there: The answer was, uh, "no." That might have been a factor in its move.

K

[Greg Amy]

I doubt any current Rabbit GTI drivers were racing those cars when they were in A...

My very first road race car was an ITA Rabbit GTI...but I used the stock 14x6 wheels...


On edit: Kirk, you still have those old rule sets? I seem to recall the width rule was put in there later. Wasn't the original rule (circa 1986/7-ish) to use stock-size wheels...?

[Scott Nutter]

Hypothetical (VERY) question: So which is the correct option?

1. Allow cars moving from ITA to ITB to run with 7" wheels at their B weight as established by the specification process, or...

2. Allow that subgroup of cars to run 7" wheels but with a weight penalty to account for the increased performance of the wider wheels, or...

3. Allow everyone to run 7" wheels with no weight penalty, or...

4. Allow everyone to run 7" wheels with more weight, or...

5. Throw up our arms and let everyone run anything that will fit under stock fenders

Did I forget any options?

K

To be honest, I got tired of reading about halfway thru page 2. I personally would lean towards the shock rule mentality and go with option 5. As long as it is the same bolt pattern and fits under the stock fenders it's legal.

I'm honestly not sure if an ITB car would benefit from say 9" rims. Of course with DOT rubber!

Let's face it the fast guys would still be fast and the guys willing to spend money would still spend money and the cheap guys could run what ever rubber they could find. Remeber in IT there is no guarantee of competiveness