Looking for in-car VIR group 6 incident

[Knestis]

It didn't work out very well at all in this case but it's NOT safe to assume that Tristan "jumped the start."

I'll confess to being sensitive to this issue after the snarky comments and back-channel steward-lobbying I got to deal with at the IT festival. However, Vaughn's video compilation shows me going by at the green, gaining on the front rows but having clearly NOT passed anyone prior to the wave of the flag. My point (Raymond) is that more velocity going into T1 isn't evidence of a jump, as the GCR defines it. Sort of like an increasing distance between cars coming out of a corner is NOT evidence that the guy ahead has more power. It's physics, about the distinctions among distance, velocity, and acceleration, with respect to time.

Now, you can ignore everything I've said because my run went completely sucktastical before T1, too. But for consideration...

K

[lateapex911]

I made my comments over on RRAX when I first saw this, but the "jump or not a jump" doesn't concern me in the slightest.

I've read Tristians comments, and I think they are a step in the right direction. I would hope that he found every car damaged in that fiasco and apologized profusely. That was a serious case of greed and bad judgment, and no consideration for others at the time. I hope it was a few seconds brain fart.

One comment I read though, and perhaps I'm assuming incorrectly, but the bit about surging up and back and timing the green bothers me. If you are the last car in line, fine. Otherwise, (I'm assuming this wasn't a last car in line situation) thats rather selfish behavior, and screws up all the rows behind you. Que up, hold the position and the pattern, and go on the green. Really, you have to be fair to others.

Yea, if there wasn't a good beating in the stewards office, or any protests, I'd consider myself veeery lucky.

[JLawton]

I think you guys can lay off him now. He has already said it was a bad move and wouldn't happen again. We've all done moves like this and most of the time get away with it.

I think we bashed him enough, let's move on......

One comment I read though, and perhaps I'm assuming incorrectly, but the bit about surging up and back and timing the green bothers me. If you are the last car in line, fine. Otherwise, (I'm assuming this wasn't a last car in line situation) thats rather selfish behavior, and screws up all the rows behind you. Que up, hold the position and the pattern, and go on the green. Really, you have to be fair to others.
.

Jake, I realize you've always been lucky enough to never have started at the back of the pack, :cool: but you get that rubber band effect. The further back, the harder it is for everyone to keep a steady pace. You've got guys down shifting, guys realizing they're too close to the car in front, or starting to lag. This starts from the second row back, but gets magnified the further back you go. It's not done on purpose.


On edit: "You have to be fair to the others"???? Really?? I don't know about you but I will do everything I can to get an advantage as long as I don't think I'll get black flagged. If you have Crazy Joe behind you, and you know he's got a power advantage, you bet your ass I will do what I can to keep him back there........ (it never works, but I keep trying anyways!!)

[iambhooper]

Jake, I realize you've always been lucky enough to never have started at the back of the pack, :cool: but you get that rubber band effect. The further back, the harder it is for everyone to keep a steady pace. You've got guys down shifting, guys realizing they're too close to the car in front, or starting to lag. This starts from the second row back, but gets magnified the further back you go. It's not done on purpose.

Well said. I can tell you from the 12 row, I was back n forth between 2nd and 3rd, while on the brakes, clutch and throttle... while trying to move just enough to get a glimpse of the starter stand.

That being said... Tristan, didin't you pass me in the dirt several other times over the weekend? I seem to remember your car coming past at 4/5 and at 7 with a plume of red mist. You've got a quick car, one that might be a class leader... but that means nothing if you keep wanting to bonzai everything. If you have the move, make the pass. Don't just stick the car in there and think that a hole will be there... you've seen the results.

Like Jay said, I'm sure (hope!) you learned from this. I'm sorry that others cars were damaged, but I was happy as snott to make it through without any harm to my car. I guess it did pay off to be back in the middle of the pack!

hoop

[chewy8000]

I think you guys can lay off him now. He has already said it was a bad move and wouldn't happen again. We've all done moves like this and most of the time get away with it.

I think we bashed him enough, let's move on......

Thanks Jeff. I understand the $%^# storm that was created and myself and others are done for the season. I feel as bad as one could for a split second lack of judgement like that. Really sucks...

[gran racing]

going by at the green, gaining on the front rows but having clearly NOT passed anyone prior to the wave of the flag.

But it's not just about if cars are passed prior to the waive of the green flag. I'm not implying that you (or Tristan) laid back more than acceptable on purpose, but I think that's more what Jake was talking about. For IT Fest, it would have been more interesting to see video from cars behind you.

[shwah]

It was amazing how a good start back in the pack can impact that first turn. At IT Fest I got a love tap going into 1 in the 2nd row as a result of the activity triggered by Kirk's very good start. Didn't have any idea what took place for quite a while, but I thought there was a video out there somewhere from further back in the pack that just showed a very competitive start and turn 1.

[924Guy]

Very interesting to hear that, Kirk! I'll have to go back and watch that vid again! I've sent the comment through to my wife, who took all the video.

It's both amusing and interesting/timely discussion; we were just having the conversation last night about how you can potentially get a killer (not jumped) start from the back, what the GCR says, and then what the heck do you do with all that speed when you're at a very narrow track like VIR or Waterford, with just 2 lanes of asphalt... She's a Novice this year, having just gone through school 2 weeks ago... so we pretty much came to the conclusion that "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!!"

[gran racing]

Nuttin' but love Chris. I was soooo glad it didn't impact you. Finally replaced my bumper - damn those must be some long wheel studs. lol

[erlrich]

Ok, after reading some of the comments here I have to ask: do most of you guys think there are times when it's ok to go off track intentionally? I'm not talking about avoiding contact, or other emergency situations, but driving off into the dirt to pass someone, or to maintain your position? Is that really ok? If so I need to adjust my way of thinking.

[Knestis]

>> "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!!"

Good advice pretty much any time one is on the track.

At the start, the onus is ALWAYS on the driver who gets a good run to have a way to resolve it.

In my case, there was pavement to work with, but it became quickly occupied by sideways car. I had to choose the best of three bad options (try to squeak past Dave's bumper, which I actually snagged in the process; vs. broadside him having slowed however much I could or turning left into the wall). I put myself in that situation with the run at the green, I had to deal with it, and I bear responsiblity regardless of what goes wrong or what led to the mess.

The real lesson though (I think) is that this is the case IRRESPECTIVE of details re: who got how good of a start. It's a lot easier to work out the details if all of the cars in a given space are getting there at about the same speed but that's pretty much never going to be the case on the start.

I might be in the minority on this but I'd suggest that starters do NOT do us any favors by waiting to see if things are formed up and tight before throwing the flag - particularly with a big field. It's a bit of a generalization but, the later the green, the more opportunity the snake has to get coiled up and ready to strike.

It's a subtle distinction but I'd propose that their real responsibility is to get the race underway safely, rather than forcing the field to look pretty. And starters who get preoccupied with the "Hah hah!" games, worrying more about surprising us with the flag than about getting us underway, are frankly not paying attention to the most important aspect of their job.

I'd way prefer an early, messy start to a late start with the front rows tightly bunched up.

K

EDIT - A thousand years ago in the ITC Alliance days, I got a whopper of a run from DFL in a big pack at Portland. In THAT case, in all probablity, I DID jump the start because all I had to go by was the increase in noise from the other side of the slough (no radio, couldn't see the flag). I was driver's right (inside of the last turn onto the straight) but - BUMMER - had to come to a COMPLETE STOP to get back in line at the end: They people in front of me were nose-to-tail and running right along the end of the then-brand-new "pro pits" wall on the infield side of the straight, I couldn't get in, and the end of the pits was covered by a (slightly) angled Jersey barrier. I'm lucky that I was driving a slow car.

[erlrich]

I might be in the minority on this but I'd suggest that starters do NOT do us any favors by waiting to see if things are formed up and tight before throwing the flag - particularly with a big field. It's a bit of a generalization but, the later the green, the more opportunity the snake has to get coiled up and ready to strike.

It's a subtle distinction but I'd propose that their real responsibility is to get the race underway safely, rather than forcing the field to look pretty. And starters who get preoccupied with the "Hah hah!" games, worrying more about surprising us with the flag than about getting us underway, are frankly not paying attention to the most important aspect of their job.

I'd way prefer an early, messy start to a late start with the front rows tightly bunched up.

K

I agree 100%. I assume all regions do this, but I know in the DC region the corner workers start calling in the condition of the field several turns before start (typically T8 at Summit). The starter knows what the field looks like long before they come into sight. As best I can tell, our starters are pretty good about getting the flag out as early as possible; I think they usually have it waving by the time the lead cars hit pit out.

[jjjanos]

>> I might be in the minority on this but I'd suggest that starters do NOT do us any favors by waiting to see if things are formed up and tight before throwing the flag - particularly with a big field. It's a bit of a generalization but, the later the green, the more opportunity the snake has to get coiled up and ready to strike.

It's a subtle distinction but I'd propose that their real responsibility is to get the race underway safely, rather than forcing the field to look pretty. And starters who get preoccupied with the "Hah hah!" games, worrying more about surprising us with the flag than about getting us underway, are frankly not paying attention to the most important aspect of their job.

I'd way prefer an early, messy start to a late start with the front rows tightly bunched up.

K

You can throw a late green if everybody can see the stand - say at a Roval where the stand is miles above the pavement. At most places we run, the guys in the back will never see the flag and are either guessing or keying on the cars at front. A late start will be fine, if the nuts holding the wheels aren't playing games, but that's not the case usually.

You'll get someone in row 4 leave a gap and get on the throttle early in an attempt to get a jump, everyone behind gets on the throttle, even if only to maintain their spacing on him. Gapper needs to roll off the throttle, and everybody behind accordians...

I think part of the problem for this particular race was that few, if any, of the groups maintained pace car speed when it dove for the track. Probably a consequence of everyone knowing that there was no way there would be a waveoff. It takes so long to do another pace lap that I imagine you could have cars barrel-rolling prior to the green and still get a green.

[JLawton]

Ok, after reading some of the comments here I have to ask: do most of you guys think there are times when it's ok to go off track intentionally? I'm not talking about avoiding contact, or other emergency situations, but driving off into the dirt to pass someone, or to maintain your position? Is that really ok? If so I need to adjust my way of thinking.

Yes*




*IF you're talking two wheels. Like any other situation you better be damn sure you're making the right decision though. Four?? Not a good idea (in my opinion)



Hell, I saw Fangio do all four in the grass to make a pass in a Prototype. If he can do it, I certainly can do!!!!

Kidding, KIDDING!!!




.

[lateapex911]

Jake, I realize you've always been lucky enough to never have started at the back of the pack, :cool:

HAR har har. yea, my rocketship RX-7, you know, the one that has 44 hp less than your car!) always starts up front. Jeff, I've never started higher than the second row.

.....but you get that rubber band effect. The further back, the harder it is for everyone to keep a steady pace. You've got guys down shifting, guys realizing they're too close to the car in front, or starting to lag. This starts from the second row back, but gets magnified the further back you go. It's not done on purpose.

I know, but the poster said he knew when the green would be thrown, and laid back, then surged ...the resulting run was huge, so we know it wasn't a "layback a foot, then surge" deal. We all do that.

On edit: "You have to be fair to the others"???? Really?? I don't know about you but I will do everything I can to get an advantage as long as I don't think I'll get black flagged. If you have Crazy Joe behind you, and you know he's got a power advantage, you bet your ass I will do what I can to keep him back there........ (it never works, but I keep trying anyways!!)

I've been behind guys who surge up and back twenty feet, It's ridiculous. They're in the second or third row, by the time that snakes back even 2 or 3 rows of the 20, it's insane! If anyone needs help on the start, it's me. 105 ft lbs of torque, and no radio...but you have to try to be fair to those around you.

Best place EVAr for the huge run start: Pocono. LOTS of room. (like 10 wide room) I started 32nd of 32 there once, hung way back, timed it perfectly, and was in 12th by the first turn, with enough momentum to take me to 4th by turn 2. (Luckily, my lap times were good enough to run with the leaders, I was just starting from the back for other reasons)

[happyjap]

Hoop,

Just found another vid on utube - looks like you were in the middle of that one. You got lucky, eh?

Rex

[BUMPnGO]

Hole shot gone bad.

[quadzjr]

Hoop,

Just found another vid on utube - looks like you were in the middle of that one. You got lucky, eh?

Rex

link?

[dickita15]

I might be in the minority on this but I'd suggest that starters do NOT do us any favors by waiting to see if things are formed up and tight before throwing the flag - particularly with a big field. It's a bit of a generalization but, the later the green, the more opportunity the snake has to get coiled up and ready to strike.

I cannot say that I disagree but Starters are aware that the sooner they give the green the faster the speeds are in the first turn when it gets tight and cars start bouncing off each other.

[JoshS]

I cannot say that I disagree but Starters are aware that the sooner they give the green the faster the speeds are in the first turn when it gets tight and cars start bouncing off each other.

Out here when we have 50-60 car fields, we often find that unless the front row goes very slow and the green comes late, the back of the back hasn't even caught up and formed up by the time the green comes out. The back of the pack won't even be on the front straight yet.

When I was in the slowest class in the group instead of the fastest class, I used to really welcome those late greens, so that maybe we could get a proper 2-by-2 start.