Looking for in-car VIR group 6 incident

[lateapex911]

Yea, I'm with you Josh. I wrecked in qualifying once and had to start 67th of 69 at Watkins Glen. At the time the starters stand was near the beginning of the straight, and I bet maybe 6 rows were ON the straight when the green waved. I was two corners away, and I guessed we were going..because I had found a car with a radio antenna on it, and keyed off him.

[Knestis]

I cannot say that I disagree but Starters are aware that the sooner they give the green the faster the speeds are in the first turn when it gets tight and cars start bouncing off each other.

Fair enough.

Josh also points out that the pace car - and the FIELD - has an obligation to get it organized on the pace lap. The reason that I was in the position I was at Mid-O is that the row ahead of me was dawdling all the way around almost to the carousel (scrubbing tires, mostly).

K

[shwah]

This is why IMO we need to reinforce to the starters that it is OK, actually preferred, and IMO safer to wave a bad group off.

Even if there is a split start.

Even if it is a 4 mile track.

[racer14itc]

Looks like some folks might want to re-read GCR 6.8.3. As an SIT, if I had seen this from the tower (which is admittedly difficult because of the pit wall hindering line of sight in this case), I would have certainly reported it to the Chief Steward. It would then be his/her call to issue a CSA (Chief Steward's Action).

Essentially it says if you leave the pavement during competition and gain an advantage, said advantage can be rescinded by the Chief Steward. This applies at the start as well.

MC

[iambhooper]

Looks like some folks might want to re-read GCR 6.8.3. As an SIT, if I had seen this from the tower (which is admittedly difficult because of the pit wall hindering line of sight in this case), I would have certainly reported it to the Chief Steward. It would then be his/her call to issue a CSA (Chief Steward's Action).

Essentially it says if you leave the pavement during competition and gain an advantage, said advantage can be rescinded by the Chief Steward. This applies at the start as well.

MC

Are you refering to the staters stand or the pagoda? I've been in the that starters stand, and you can see everything.

[racer14itc]

Are you refering to the staters stand or the pagoda? I've been in the that starters stand, and you can see everything.

hoop,

it all depends are where either the Chief Steward is located at that moment, or what the starter and/or start judge see. The start judge should be on the starter's stand as well.

I was not there so I can't speak as to why no action was taken.

MC

[Z3_GoCar]

Looks like some folks might want to re-read GCR 6.8.3. As an SIT, if I had seen this from the tower (which is admittedly difficult because of the pit wall hindering line of sight in this case), I would have certainly reported it to the Chief Steward. It would then be his/her call to issue a CSA (Chief Steward's Action).

Essentially it says if you leave the pavement during competition and gain an advantage, said advantage can be rescinded by the Chief Steward. This applies at the start as well.

MC

By leave the pavement (I beileve it's racing surface in the GCR), I presume you mean all four off??

[Knestis]

This is why IMO we need to reinforce to the starters that it is OK, actually preferred, and IMO safer to wave a bad group off.

Even if there is a split start.

Even if it is a 4 mile track.

Even if it the day is behind schedule...?

By leave the pavement (I beileve it's racing surface in the GCR), I presume you mean all four off??

That's always been my operational understanding.

K

[shwah]

Essentially it says if you leave the pavement during competition and gain an advantage, said advantage can be rescinded by the Chief Steward. This applies at the start as well.

MC

I never saw that car leave the pavement.

[shwah]

Even if it the day is behind schedule...?


K

Did this result help out with the schedule?

Yes regardless of schedule. Not following our own rules for the rolling start is a dangerous practice, literally.

[Knestis]

I absolutely agree but there's no question that I've seen compromises to safety made over the years, influenced by the clock.

K

[Ron]

Following Greg Amy during night practice at VIR 13 hr in 2007, I learned that at the left hander after the uphill esses if you cut the inside of the corner you kick up just enough dirt that the following car can't see an exit point. Not saying it was done on purpose, but one does learn "tricks" that can be used later in life.
Also that year we were starting close to the back and it was the fasted pace lap I have ever done. I think the plan from the starters was to spread the field out with a fast pace car. I think the pace car turned a 2:30 lap time! It did however spread the field and it was a smooth start.

[StephenB]

GCR 6.8.3.
Essentially it says if you leave the pavement during competition and gain an advantage, said advantage can be rescinded by the Chief Steward. This applies at the start as well.

MC

This is a correct statement but to be considered "leaving the racing surface" you need to have all 4 wheels off the racing surface. You also need to re-enter the track where all 4 wheels left... but you can't turnaround

In this case all 4 wheels DID NOT leave the track. until he started spinning and boucing around.

[racer14itc]

This is a correct statement but to be considered "leaving the racing surface" you need to have all 4 wheels off the racing surface. You also need to re-enter the track where all 4 wheels left... but you can't turnaround

In this case all 4 wheels DID NOT leave the track. until he started spinning and boucing around.

Stephen, the "4 wheels off " clause of 6.8.3 only applies to temporary and airport circuits that are marked. So the "off course excursion" portion of 6.8.3 is open to interpretation by drivers and stewards. Guess who usually wins? :eek:

FWIW, this situation could also be penalized under 2.1.4, reckless or dangerous driving. The stewards have several options to curb aggressive driving at the starts...

MC

[StephenB]

Stephen, the "4 wheels off " clause of 6.8.3 only applies to temporary and airport circuits that are marked. So the "off course excursion" portion of 6.8.3 is open to interpretation by drivers and stewards.

I think it is fair to say that in the nicest way possible I completly disagree with you unless noted in the supps.

"The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course durng a competion, and shall not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion. Unless otherwise provided by Supplementary Regulations, when ever a driver leaves an artificially marked course or an airport circuit with all four (4) wheels, he shall re-enter the course at the same spot where he went off, and cannot simply re-enter further down the course, subject to the directions of the Corner Worker controlling Re-entry"

Guess who usually wins?

I 100% AGREE with you here. At LRP a few years back the stewards penalized you for dropping 2 wheels over a painted line in the uphill... Didn't even have to drop of the pavement at the top of the hill! If you touched that line = DQ!!!

FWIW, this situation could also be penalized under 2.1.4, reckless or dangerous driving. The stewards have several options to curb aggressive driving at the starts...

MC

I 100% AGREE with you here.

Stephen

PS: Thanks for being an SIT. My brother did this and I simply don't have the time... working in retail weekends are a must
Eventhough we will probably never race together and I may never attend an event you personally work at I thank anyone that takes the time to volenteer in our club! Even if we disagree

[jjjanos]

I cannot say that I disagree but Starters are aware that the sooner they give the green the faster the speeds are in the first turn when it gets tight and cars start bouncing off each other.

Which is a red herring. The problem isn't how fast cars are going at Turn 1. It's the number of cars trying to go through at once. It's the accordian effect that is the problem.

Maintain the pace car speed. "Once the pace car pulls off for the start, the pole car shall maintain the speed of the pace car just prior to the pace car pulling off." (GCR - Sporting Regulations).

- That doesn't happen and certainly didn't happen in many of the starts at VIR.

[Knestis]

...Maintain the pace car speed. "Once the pace car pulls off for the start, the pole car shall maintain the speed of the pace car just prior to the pace car pulling off." (GCR - Sporting Regulations).

- That doesn't happen and certainly didn't happen in many of the starts at VIR.

Also a fair point. At that juncture however, the bitch should be with the pole-sitter. And potentially with the pace car driver if he/she sets a speed that's not appropriate. AND THAT is a separate issue from the speed of the pace car on the out lap...

Lots of responsibility in lots of little pieces, the sum of which can be a big PITA.

K

[Z3_GoCar]

IMHO, it's not the start that was the problem.... As I saw it in the video here are some of the mistakes leading to the whole incident:

1 ) Tristian did have a very small overlap, maybe a couple of inches maybe less than that, with the gray car.

2 ) The yellow Rx7 swerved.

3 ) The gray car overreacted and swerved into the VW which had been there... causing the pitt manuver type spin into the fence.

What did make this worse for lots of people was the fact that it was a start and lots of cars were in close proximity togeather. I didn't see who tapped the car taking the video. I thought he was free untill he went sideways.

[tac911t]

IMHO, it's not the start that was the problem.... As I saw it in the video here are some of the mistakes leading to the whole incident:

1 ) Tristian did have a very small overlap, maybe a couple of inches maybe less than that, with the gray car.

2 ) The yellow Rx7 swerved.

3 ) The gray car overreacted and swerved into the VW which had been there... causing the pitt manuver type spin into the fence.

What did make this worse for lots of people was the fact that it was a start and lots of cars were in close proximity togeather. I didn't see who tapped the car taking the video. I thought he was free untill he went sideways.

What gray car? The yellow Rx7 moved over just a little to the right toward the blue Rx7, the blue Rx7 was still on the track, and they both probably would not have touched each other. Brake lights did not appear on the VW until after the blue Rx7 was hit, not to mention that there was a 2 or 3 car hole behind the blue Rx7 that VW could have slipped into. At the point the blue Rx7 was hit, the guardrail and the track were moving closer together, and the VW ran out of room. It seems that if the guardrail and track did not close in at that point, the blue Rx7 would have been passed in the grass on the right.

I was a few rows behind Hoop, and all I saw was a dirt cloud to the right, and cars spinning of to the left.

[RexRacer19]

Which is a red herring. The problem isn't how fast cars are going at Turn 1. It's the number of cars trying to go through at once. It's the accordian effect that is the problem.

Maintain the pace car speed. "Once the pace car pulls off for the start, the pole car shall maintain the speed of the pace car just prior to the pace car pulling off." (GCR - Sporting Regulations).

- That doesn't happen and certainly didn't happen in many of the starts at VIR.

Also a fair point. At that juncture however, the bitch should be with the pole-sitter. And potentially with the pace car driver if he/she sets a speed that's not appropriate. AND THAT is a separate issue from the speed of the pace car on the out lap...

Lots of responsibility in lots of little pieces, the sum of which can be a big PITA.

K

While I can't speak for the other groups this past weekend, being the pole sitter for group 6 on both days, I can say that things went absolutley like they should have up front. The pace car maintained a slow and consistent speed all around the course, and once it went in I maintained that speed within 5mph until the green flew. The cars that I could see behind me were formed up nice as well.