$515 for a 2 day regional at LRP

[BruceG]

I agree with Andy. I was at SCDA on April 20th which was well attended and The Porsche Club of CT rented the track for Friday and Sat last week. I understand that there were only 20 cars at the LRP test and tune on 4/21 but I still think there is big demand for use of the track thru out the season.

[lateapex911]

I do wonder about the "club". I'm always getting emails begging me to come up, toss $3K and do a day, and they'll credit me the money to membership. And they now have many levels of membership ....I'm getting the impression that the Club isn't selling as fast as they'd like. Last I heard, after a year of accepting applications, they were just under half subscribed. I'm not sure what the business plan calls for so that might be right on target, or ahead or behind.

I also heard, and have seen when I've been up there for club days that the track isn't exactly "full" unless you consider a couple of Miatas and a Ferrari circulating "full".

Time will tell, but I have a sneaking feeling that Skip is on edge of his seat these days.

Add to that the difficulty in attracting pro races, due to the dearth of easy and affordable hotels and eating establishments, and the relative difficulty in getting there. NJMP seems to have snatched some big dates away.

I love the place, but I am scratching my head wondering if Skip is pricing himself out of the market in the long term. I think this year will be a barometer.

[StephenB]

[QUOTE=lateapex911;286631]
i agree with Dick and Andy, the test/race deal is a good one. The test day is cheaper than Lime Rock charges, will be run better, and will be longer. Trust me on this if you've never tested at Lime Rock. AND, you won't have to schlep the trailer home Tuesday night, just to schlep back Friday night.

More convenient, more track time, less towing costs and cheaper = winner.

[QUOTE]

I 100% agree with that! I hated towing back and fourth with a 3.5HR 1 way trip to do a test day! I am still a bit suprised at the 2 day cost, although I agree you probably will get much more track time due to only 4 run groups. Not going back and reading the supps I would assume at least 4 20min. sessions, instead of just the 2 18min. ones we normally would get.

I certainly support the "out of box" creative ideas that the regions are trying so that we can continue to have and support LRP SCCA events. I will unfourtunatly not be able to support you financially by attending any events other than the PRO-IT as it is simply beyond my budget and I can't justify the cost to my wife, or myself. In reality if I was just going racing for a weekend I would trade this race for a race at the glen, summmit, or VIR. The cost in the end is still similar with the extra towing costs, and a little less track time. Again at no fault of the region, I understand the risk and cost to run the event at LRP. I just don't see anything that makes LRP more attractive other than the commute for me.

Admitaly as an outsider and someone that is not "in the business" (I am only a consumer, which like all consumers makes me think I know what is best ) I don't understand the concept that LRP is trying to achieve. I do not think that the smaller clubs and limited pro-events will support the track long term with other venues slowly popping up. But again I am only a consumer and in the end I have no idea how to "run/Manage" a successfull track.

I wish LRP the best and just to clarify... Thanks for pointing out the justification and idea behind the $515 entry fee. I support the regions for their efforts a I personally would not be upset if we limited the SCCA events to 1 race per year just so I can get my yearly LRP addiction taken care of!

Stephen

[Robert Zecca]

Guys,

Everyone is absolutely correct about costs at LRP. Thank you for spelling that out. The bottom line is LRP is a racers track, has history and most people love the place. Other places have zero character. The price is really not that high but I understand things are tough for some. Other clubs go there and pay the price no problem.

What we need to do is grow our sport, grow entrants and then costs can come down. We can talk all we want on this forum and others but lets try getting people involved. Look at SCCA years ago, there was no NASA, BMW or Porsche club racing. I was at Lime Rock this weekend and saw about 110 Porsches worth $40-160K and no junk. Why are these guys running with these clubs BECAUSE WE BLEW IT YEARS AGO. We as SCCA NEED TO DO A BETTER JOB AND WILL HAVE TO CHANGE FOR THE FUTURE OR WE WILL BE IN THE SAME BOAT. The more participants the more costs will go down. No easy solution but it can be done.

Sincerely,
Bob Zecca

[Andy Bettencourt]

Someone needs to examine 'the good ole' days. Was there SEVENTEEN points paying races for the NARRC Championship?

We need LESS EVENTS. We are diluting the customer base. We have more people racing but less racers per event. Tighten up supply and demand for individual races will grow. LRP can survive with the SCCA but not with 14 other events in the same year.

It hurts to give up something that we love but if 250 show up at LRP in 2010 because they only have 2 chances to go, that's better, no?

[lateapex911]

I was at Lime Rock this weekend and saw about 110 Porsches worth $40-160K and no junk. Why are these guys running with these clubs BECAUSE WE BLEW IT YEARS AGO. We as SCCA NEED TO DO A BETTER JOB AND WILL HAVE TO CHANGE FOR THE FUTURE OR WE WILL BE IN THE SAME BOAT. The more participants the more costs will go down. No easy solution but it can be done.

Sincerely,
Bob Zecca

Bob...I think that it's not entirely SCCAs fault. Sure, we have room for improvement, but there's more to it than that.

Quick story- my girlfriend was on a plane, and sat next to a guy..they chatted, and it came up that he was a Porsche owner and she learned he raced. She came back with all his info, and said it was odd that he got quiet when she asked how he did. Well, the race he said he had done the month previous was at Lime Rock, but it was October. We know PCACVR runs their LRP race in April, he didn't actually race..he did DEs. That's not the first time I've heard that, i've run into it myself. I know a couple guys who say they're "going racing" to their pals, but it's a DE.

We are seeing the marque clubs prosper because they cater to a very narrow audience. Guys who want to do DEs with other same marque guys, or guys who want to race against the same car, or one very similar. Lots of classes, lots of trophies. A 13/13 rule to protect the investment. A friend who runs PCA races avises me on my Porsche research and chukles when I remind him I won't do his "cheat" suggestion. I get the impression things are a little loose ruleswise there.

So the marque clubs are serving an audience that doesn't like the multi marque, strict rules adherance and hard racing approach of the SCCA.

Different markets. I know many of those guys just wouldn't enter an SCCA race in a zillion years, no matter what we do.

Agreed though, we can do better, and i applaud your and NNJRs efforts in that regard.

[gran racing]

We need LESS EVENTS.

I agree but the politics of this is gonna be tough. Which region give the date(s) up? In the past (maybe now still?) I thought it was odd that multiple regions host events at the same track versus one group is responsible for organizing events at one specific track.

What we need to do is grow our sport, grow entrants and then costs can come down. We can talk all we want on this forum and others but lets try getting people involved. Look at SCCA years ago, there was no NASA, BMW or Porsche club racing. I was at Lime Rock this weekend and saw about 110 Porsches worth $40-160K and no junk.

I'm not so sure people racing $40 - 160K Porsches are overly concerned with a $515 2 day event versus $415. That also goes to support the different markets theory Jake stated.

I still think one weak spot for SCCA is the often transition from Solo > PDX (umm...) > Club Racing. I totally understand the reasoning for bailing on doing the PDX that Friday before the race but at some point, SCCA as a whole needs to figure a way to get people into the sport and better utilize the PDX program. Maybe that means having one run group in a restricted regional (NHMS as an example, eliminate National elgible open wheel cars or at least combine groups) for PDX drivers. Or partner with existing DE organizations such as SCDA. Gotta give people a taste of the racing crack to get them hooked.

[anthony1k]

Kudos to the region for trying something new this year. $225 for a T&T day is a bargain. Even SP is higher than that.

As far as the high race entry fee, we are talking maybe $50-75 more than other tracks. This is less than half a tire or a couple of sessions on race fuel. I know times are tough and racing is an expensive sport. But if the extra $75 is going to put a dent on someone's family budget, maybe racing is the wrong activity to be involved in.

I give a lot of credit to Skip for keeping the track going in such an inhospitable environment. It will be a sad to see it go the way of Bridgehampton.

[Jeremy Billiel]

I agree but the politics of this is gonna be tough. Which region give the date(s) up? In the past (maybe now still?) I thought it was odd that multiple regions host events at the same track versus one group is responsible for organizing events at one specific track.

There is a lot of history there Dave, but the bottom line is NER owns the rights to LRP. NER, due to the kindness of their heart, decided years ago to let other regions use some of the LRP dates. (I am grossly oversimplifiying this). With that said you are also 100% correct that the politics here will/woudl be ugly.

[rsx858]

SCCA as a whole needs to figure a way to get people into the sport and better utilize the PDX program. Maybe that means having one run group in a restricted regional (NHMS as an example, eliminate National elgible open wheel cars or at least combine groups) for PDX drivers. Or partner with existing DE organizations such as SCDA. Gotta give people a taste of the racing crack to get them hooked.

I agree our pdx program needs to be utilized... Yes PDX's are cheap and offer a lot of classroom instruction but frankly they dont compare to track days like PDA / SCDA with gobs of track time which is what most entrants are looking for. Having a PDX run group in conjunction with a regional is an exellent way to grow the club racing program.. get them running with scca early and hopefully they stick with the club..

I remember when i was first starting out I ran all my track days with nasa/pda because they had lots of dates and lots of track time...PDX's are scarce.

Repeated Classroom sessions are important for learning drivers, however lots of guys who are nearing the jump to club racing are experienced track day guys who like i said are mostly interested in track time... PDX just does not appeal to them when they can get double the time somewhere else.

[BruceG]

Watched a 914/6 last Friday go down the front straight past the emergency shack at LRP on fire like a comet! Went down the access road and they put him out. Blew some pistons and slammed the con rods into Skip's new pavement!

Then they tell their friends that they do some hot racing...LOL

[Andy Bettencourt]

There is a lot of history there Dave, but the bottom line is NER owns the rights to LRP. NER, due to the kindness of their heart, decided years ago to let other regions use some of the LRP dates. (I am grossly oversimplifiying this). With that said you are also 100% correct that the politics here will/woudl be ugly.

I am going to disagree here - slightly. MoHud and NNJ would probably GLADLY stop hosting LRP - because they actually risk the Regions financial LIFE in doing so. NER can take a hit every now and then but that can only happen so often. The one who would be really sour would be NYR - they have hosted the NARRC Runoff weekend for as long as I can remember - but like you said - because NER lets them.

If I were King in NER, I would tell the other regions that I was taking 2 weekends. The May school and single - and the NARRC Runoffs. If either of them wanted to risk finacial suicide by taking the June race, go for it - but I am still convinced that we need LESS EVENTS. Bring the NARRC series down to 12 and if that isn't enough racin' for you, grab a ProIT, NYSRRC, or NERRC event to fill your needs. 17 events at 6 tracks is just watering down a great product.

[Rabbit05]

my 2 cents...

If its more car counts you are looking for, you need to lower the cost of the entry fees.

I can't tell you how many guys I have talked to, or that love road racing , or, do auto crosses ,go and spectate, or all of the above . I tell them I did this at one point, everything seems feasable to them, UNTILL, I tell them it's $300 - $400 dollar just to get in the race..and they are more suprised when I tell them there is no purse , its all just for a plastic trophy. (and the for fun of racing)

I know some things are out of the SCCA's hands....but it is a deterant for me now to try to get back into it. IE, If you are just doing the saturday race $290 for MAYBE 30 minutes of track time. ( ~$100.oo per ten minutes)


What would happen if you made the Lime Rock race say $150 per car.....how many guys, from say the DC region...Penn...or even Ohio would come out for that ? Thats just the IT crowd we are talking about too...what about the other 5-6 groups per weekend?


-John

[raffaelli]

I still think one weak spot for SCCA is the often transition from Solo > PDX (umm...) > Club Racing. I totally understand the reasoning for bailing on doing the PDX that Friday before the race but at some point, SCCA as a whole needs to figure a way to get people into the sport and better utilize the PDX program. Maybe that means having one run group in a restricted regional (NHMS as an example, eliminate National elgible open wheel cars or at least combine groups) for PDX drivers. Or partner with existing DE organizations such as SCDA. Gotta give people a taste of the racing crack to get them hooked.

Speaking first hand from experience, this works. After pitting next to race cars with my street car while doing a very limited DE during a MoHud regional in July several years ago at LRP...search for a race car started the next day.

[Andy Bettencourt]

my 2 cents...

If its more car counts you are looking for, you need to lower the cost of the entry fees.


-John

It's a risk that could wipe out a Region. At $400 per car, you need 175 cars to cover $70K. At $150 per car, you need 466 cars. Guess what? That's 58 cars per run group in an 8 run group day. Impossible. Can't do it.

So if you MAX out each run group at a 'waivered' 42 cars, that is 336 cars. $208 each. Again, it's unlikely you could get more than 300 cars to an event. Say you did: $235 each would cover it.

Is THAT enough of an incentive to blow the lid off the entry packet?

Remember, Regions only charge what they NEED to, based on a forecast, to cover costs. Less money equals more demand for sure, but can it get low enough to accomplish what you are thinking? Not sure.

[gran racing]

Matt, I think there should be different stages within SCCA's PDX program. One stage focuses on people totally new to track days. Another for more experienced drivers with a focus on lots of track time. Why can't it compare to PDA & SCDA in this respect? Then one focused on people interested in doing the w2w thing. That last stage might mean incorporate sessions in the standard PDX event, and some during a race weekend where the focus is on learning the ropes of racing. The NER is trying to start a mentor program, incorporate this. I recognize this would take a commitment by regions to complete. Don't want the risk of renting a track and not have enough people pay for it? Don't want to worry about volunteers and a different type of marketing? Have you seen how many events SCDA is hosting this upcoming year? Maybe buy one SCCA run group from them at various events? There are also several other DE programs out there where something similar might be possible.

[Rabbit05]

It's a risk that could wipe out a Region. At $400 per car, you need 175 cars to cover $70K. At $150 per car, you need 466 cars. Guess what? That's 58 cars per run group in an 8 run group day. Impossible. Can't do it.

So if you MAX out each run group at a 'waivered' 42 cars, that is 336 cars. $208 each. Again, it's unlikely you could get more than 300 cars to an event. Say you did: $235 each would cover it.

Is THAT enough of an incentive to blow the lid off the entry packet?

Remember, Regions only charge what they NEED to, based on a forecast, to cover costs. Less money equals more demand for sure, but can it get low enough to accomplish what you are thinking? Not sure.

Andy,
This is why I previously stated that I know that some of it is out of the SCCA's hands. I know the regions have to charge what they need to rent the track and all that .

I guess I look at things in to simple of a manner....

you want more cars to show = lower the cost of racing

How many guys are mothballing their cars because they can't afford to go to the track ? And ,I read up in the thread before about how somebody stated that "if they cant affiord it ,they shouldnt be racing anyways,"...or something to that effect. That is clarly not the way to approach trying to "un Grey the SCCA".

As far as the Lime Rock ordeal , well, people keep buying what they are selling. So why should LRP stop ? Maybe it is time for the SCCA ,in its entirety, not go to Lime Rock ?

-John

[rsx858]

Dave you bring up some interesting ideas, Definitley for starters we need to alter our current format which only aims towards track day newbies.

A partnership with an established track day organization is an idea though i wonder if the mighty SCCA would feel it to be necesarry. And indeed it may not be.. maybe we just need to provide advanced run groups as you mentioned.

I know one thing is for sure, we need to market our products better. By that i mean posting on forums and all that stuff. Sometimes i have trouble finding info... seems like scca has 10,000 websites. one for this series one for that series one for this region one for that division..... pain in the butt.

[lateapex911]

John, so it costs $290 to race...so what? If it cost a more reasonable $225, would that make it now workable? $65 less? That's a drop in the bucket in the big scheme of things.

Sure, you can race cheaper. Roundy round stuff will save bucks. But have you ever been to one? How they remain in business without getting their asses sued from here to the moon and back is a mystery. The cars are pure garbage, roll cages made of fence posts, and nobdy seemed to mind if I was standing at the exit of a corner with nothing seperating me from a 120MPH modified other than the low wall.

Roadracing, for some reason, has higher standards, and we pay for them.

Lime Rock is an awesome track, full of subtlety. It's not easy to go fast there, and I'm reminded by others that it's a track that makes many very nervous. It's one of the most beautiful tracks in America, and is loaded with history. Not all of that matters to some, but it does to many. And it is a track that races well.
But, because of it's unique "in town" location, there are real constraints to making an event work. No Sundays. Limited unmuffled dates. Short hours. mandatory quiet times. And our form of racing (as opposed to track days or 13/13 clubs) means we pay higher rent.

For some like me, it's well worth the extra $65 (as an example), to race on a great track thats challenging and enjoyable and so close to home. (I can't figure out WHY Skip was losing so much money before, but I begrudgingly "get" that we will pay what the market will bear)

And, you can feel free to not attend and vote with your dollars in order to make your point. You have lots of choices. As for me, I'll take Lime Rock 10 times to none over Pocono....even if Pocono charges $100.

[Rabbit05]

Jake,
I love Lime Rock , I know it's fast and its FUN ! And I know how to lose a car there too.

But to say " Bah $65 is nothing !!! " ...that's food for the weekend for me...hey how about race fuel ? ...almost half a race tire.

It helps in the small scheme of things...

Thats all I am saying....now if you excuse me I have to go plant my money tree.

-John