Enduro sup. reg. standardization?

[rsportvolvo]

I'm trying to get a handle on enduro supplimental regulations and they are similar, but not the same. Is there a push to get standardized enduro regulations? I know that different organizations run the events, but it would be nice to have a standard set of regulations.

Heck they could even have an endurance series. With a finale race!

[dickita15]

In the North East some work was done in having as series, the NESCCA Enduro series, and some rule standardization was done but it is difficult. A 3 hour has a different set of problems than a 12 hour. Pit lanes vary from track to track and have different needs for rules.

[Knestis]

Some of us have been involved in conversations about this over the past 4 years or so but there's no real authority to which responsibility falls, across regions. Every region - more precisely, the people in every region - have slightly different views on some issues, that may or may not be track-specific.

There have been recent attempts at enduro series as well, none of which took off pretty much for the same reason.

What has NOT been tried, so far as I know, is to propose to SCCA Club Racing that they should do a top-down enduro rules consolidation effort.

K

[callard]

Some safety related items regarding fueling and pit stops are being drafted and Terry Ozment will be taking them to the CRB soon. As Kirk points out, different length races have different rules. What will wind up in the GCR will be the overarching safety items. Supps will apply for the type of enduro (short vs. long).
Regards,
Chuck

[jimmyc]

Some safety related items regarding fueling and pit stops are being drafted and Terry Ozment will be taking them to the CRB soon. As Kirk points out, different length races have different rules. What will wind up in the GCR will be the overarching safety items. Supps will apply for the type of enduro (short vs. long).
Regards,
Chuck

care to explain further the bolded part above? I can't think of what different length races would have different rules??

[Greg Amy]

Chuck, is there any chance we can have some input into these rules? One safety-related rule that I've brought to the attention of organizers numerous times is night time headlight width.

As street drivers we've been programmed into correlating distance-between-headlights with distance-behind-us. The narrower the distance between headlights, the "farther away" the preceding car is. Unfortunately, many enduro cars have auxiliary headlights installed that are very close together; two common examples are Spec Racers that mount driving lights over their heads on the narrow roll hoop, and Spec Miatas that mount driving light on the center of the nose and can't raise their normal headlamps.

I've personally witnessed - and have almost been involved in - many an avoidable crash where one of these vehicles with narrow headlights dives into a corner under a slower car, only to have that slower car turn into them. The reason these incidents happen is because the cars with the narrower headlights "appear" farther away, and as the leading car looks up to see who's coming before turn-in has no idea that the faster car behind them is only a few car lengths back.

Of course, there's a simple answer to this: specify a minimum distance between headlamps. This number doesn't necessarily have to be random; the distance between a pair of Spec Miata headlamps would work perfectly fine, which would require SM drivers to design their system such that they can raise their stock headlamps (with those big aux lights hanging out there in the breeze it won't add THAT much drag...) The Spec Racers would just need to widen out their lamp mounting brackets a bit - and I suggest that if they've noticed a lot of guys turning into them at night, it might be a good idea to do it anyway, even without a rule.

And, the rules can be flexible enough such that if one of the two lamps goes out, then one is fine; I know that if I have a car coming up on me with only one lamp I'm especially careful and rarely surprised

Food for thought, but this is my #1 pet peeve about endurance racing equipment. - GA

[Knestis]

It is good news that the Board is thinking about this but equally, it concerns me if the draft is being done without substantive input from folks used to actually running club enduros. I'd like to know more, too.

K

[Hahn63]

Greg, almost all of the time you bring up very good items. But this one please tell me your joking.

All I have tried over the past couple of years to get some agreement from all the enduro events and we are a lot closer to each other than ever before.

I caution everyone to not get wording in the GCR. Once it is in there it will be a lot harder to change. Saftey is important but the enduro community as a whole has had a very good record when it comes down to it for what we do.

Fire away all!

[Hahn63]

It is good news that the Board is thinking about this but equally, it concerns me if the draft is being done without substantive input from folks used to actually running club enduros. I'd like to know more, too.

K

I agree. We need to be very careful not to paint ourselves in a corner. Everyone in the enduro community needs to be involved!

[Greg Amy]

Greg, almost all of the time you bring up very good items. But this one please tell me your joking.

I infer your disagreement is with the idea of GCR rules in general, versus the specific example I offer above? Fine, I hear you. But the problem is that without some kind of centralized intervention there's just about zero chance of standardization (everybody wants to do it their own way, in a vacuum).

And I hear you wanting to offer input, regardless. Keep in mind this is the first time any of us - me, especially - have heard anything about any movement toward national standardization...

[Hahn63]

Um Greg, sorry, but I was refering to your headlight statement. I know I know ...i just lit another fuse. Dude, we can't even get them to put numbers on right and you want headlights spaced? Ah nope! FYI I want my pencial beams right next to each other...old rally guys never give up on lights!

[Greg Amy]

Um Greg, sorry, but I was refering to your headlight statement. I know I know ...i just lit another fuse.

All I know is, a Pablo rear bumper and/or rear wheel/tire is a lot sturdier - and probably costs a lot less - than Spec Racer bodywork... - GA

[Hahn63]

I hear you loud and clear. Guess they won't do that again! Maybe the sun is spaced wrong too cause it happens during the day as well!

[Hahn63]

FYI to all enduro guys. The ECS is not dead...just for this year with this crappy economy. I am working with a lot of folks to bring it back in 2010. If you would like to add input to what you would like to see in such a series my email is always open! [email protected]

[dickita15]

care to explain further the bolded part above? I can't think of what different length races would have different rules??

For instance at a 3 hour enduro at nhms most of the participants are casual enduro people or novices at longer races so there is a minimum time for refueling. The crews are not practiced and the cars are not modified for quick safe fueling. A minimum time rule allows the team not to rush so it is safer for the pick-up crews involved.
On the other hand at the summit 12 hour the teams are more practiced and pit work is part of the contest so different rules apply.

[Knestis]

For instance at a 3 hour enduro at nhms most of the participants are casual enduro people or novices at longer races so there is a minimum time for refueling. The crews are not practiced and the cars are not modified for quick safe fueling. A minimum time rule allows the team not to rush so it is safer for the pick-up crews involved.
On the other hand at the summit 12 hour the teams are more practiced and pit work is part of the contest so different rules apply.

This is an example on which reasonable people may differ.

If the issue is "unsafe practices" then punish those who are unsafe, rather than imposing artificial time constraints. The latter takes our collective eye off the ball, and leaves the pit stop observer looking at a stopwatch rather than at whatever goofy thing the crew might be doing. And it's THAT THING that's going to start a fire: Not the time they do or don't take to do it.

People inclined to be sloppy or inattentive will do so whether they are doing it quickly or slowly.

K

[jimmyc]

This is an example on which reasonable people may differ.

If the issue is "unsafe practices" then punish those who are unsafe, rather than imposing artificial time constraints. The latter takes our collective eye off the ball, and leaves the pit stop observer looking at a stopwatch rather than at whatever goofy thing the crew might be doing. And it's THAT THING that's going to start a fire: Not the time they do or don't take to do it.

People inclined to be sloppy or inattentive will do so whether they are doing it quickly or slowly.

K

couldn't agree more.

I have participated in a lot of enduros, from 2.5 to 25 hours in length. And i can't see ANY reason to require/have different rules as far as safety is concerned.

[rsportvolvo]

I would like to see standardization on:

Fuel tank capacity
General fueling safety and methods
Lighting requirements
Pit stop requirements
Jacking requirements (jacking plates or air jacks)

I would think that these supplemental regulations could easily be plagarized from IMSA or Grand-Am. Probably Grand-Am's Koni Challenge as our IT cars are similarly prepped.

[callard]

Back in 2006 we went through a session on this forum regarding enduro rules based on a presentation posted on the NESCCA website. There was a lot of input on what folks thought should be included. Some comments were safety related, some were performance advantages pretending to be safety issues. Some were esoteric.
The approach in the GCR should be a minimal set of SAFETY related items for fueling and pit stops and would be applicable for any length enduro. If we try to get too deep into other areas, nothing will happen. This is a first step.
Many of you have a lot of endurance racing experience and have valid comments and opinions but we need to focus first on the area of most risk.
Regards,
Chuck

[jjjanos]

On the other hand at the summit 12 hour the teams are more practiced and pit work is part of the contest so different rules apply.

That's a very charitable way to describe it. It's also very inaccurate. The majority of teams are inexperienced or whose experience is little more than the one or two longer enduros.

This is an example on which reasonable people may differ.

If the issue is "unsafe practices" then punish those who are unsafe, rather than imposing artificial time constraints. The latter takes our collective eye off the ball, and leaves the pit stop observer looking at a stopwatch rather than at whatever goofy thing the crew might be doing. And it's THAT THING that's going to start a fire: Not the time they do or don't take to do it.

At this year's Summit Supp meeting, I tried to either get rid of the minimum limit or increase so that it actually encouraged safety. IMO, the current limit doesn't mean anything to teams with dry-break systems (the car is full before the limit has expired) and encourages teams without the dry breaks to rush. My view was that if the limit was in-place to encourage careful, safe refueling, then the limit should be set with that in mind and if it was set to diminish the advantage of dry-breaks, then it should go away.

I have participated in a lot of enduros, from 2.5 to 25 hours in length. And i can't see ANY reason to require/have different rules as far as safety is concerned.

Size of the pit lane - i.e. a roval or a 1960s-era road course? If you are dealing with 40-foot pit boxes rules don't need to be as strict as when dealing with Summit Point-sized boxes. In the former, staging equipment and crew is less dangerous than in the cramped confines of Summit Point.

What kind of barrier is there between the pitlane and the crew staging area? Is it a concrete wall (ala rovals/professional courses) that will keep burning fuel from getting into the staging area or is it a single strand of armco (see Summit Point) that would allow burning fuel to run into the area normally used for gridding cars (and where teams are staged for the enduro)?

I would like to see standardization on:
jacking requirements (jacking plates or air jacks)

We have standardization on this - see the class rules. IT cars cannot have either unless they came standard on the car.