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Thread: CCPS-VIR cool down lap ruled legal for scoring

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    Angry CCPS-VIR cool down lap ruled legal for scoring

    I think the subject title says it all.
    I have now heard it all! SCCA officials have ruled that 22 CCPS competitors were expected to ignore the SCCA flagging rules (GCR section 6.11. 6.11.1.1. 6.11.2 6.11.2.H) AND BLOW THE CHECKER FLAG! Then SCCA Officials expected the competitors to know that they were still being scored even though the checker had already been displayed to the field ON THE TRACK. THEY SCORED THE RACE ON HOW YOU ENTERED IMPOUND!! Yes, you heard me right! SCCA SCORED the COOL DOWN LAP!! The SCCA officials told me that they don't see anything wrong with double checkering the race! I am extremely disappointed in the ruling. If you were affected, I urge you to file a protest or appeal or what ever you need to do. If nothing else tell SCCA that you will not feel safe racing in SCCA if the flags are suppose to be intentionally ignored. Christ, the competitors are busy enough with out having to decide if the checker is really the end of the race. THIS IS NUTS. ALL flags must always be obeyed!! Rule 6.11.1 even states this.

    " they shall be obeyed immediately and without question." GCR page 56

    How can you KNOW to blow the flag if you don't question it?????
    I am not happy
    Estus White

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    That's just crazy and in my view shows the lack of respect teh series gets from SCCA. It was last race on Sunday right, when everyone wanted to go home?
    NC Region
    1980 ITS Triumph TR8

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    But why would they do such a thing? Did they make a mistake?

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    ???

    K

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    Quote Originally Posted by E-3 View Post
    I think the subject title says it all.
    I have now heard it all! SCCA officials have ruled that 22 CCPS competitors were expected to ignore the SCCA flagging rules (GCR section 6.11. 6.11.1.1. 6.11.2 6.11.2.H) AND BLOW THE CHECKER FLAG! Then SCCA Officials expected the competitors to know that they were still being scored even though the checker had already been displayed to the field ON THE TRACK. THEY SCORED THE RACE ON HOW YOU ENTERED IMPOUND!! Yes, you heard me right! SCCA SCORED the COOL DOWN LAP!! The SCCA officials told me that they don't see anything wrong with double checkering the race! I am extremely disappointed in the ruling. If you were affected, I urge you to file a protest or appeal or what ever you need to do. If nothing else tell SCCA that you will not feel safe racing in SCCA if the flags are suppose to be intentionally ignored. Christ, the competitors are busy enough with out having to decide if the checker is really the end of the race. THIS IS NUTS. ALL flags must always be obeyed!! Rule 6.11.1 even states this.

    " they shall be obeyed immediately and without question." GCR page 56

    How can you KNOW to blow the flag if you don't question it?????
    I am not happy
    Estus White
    It does sound very wrong from why you are describing but can you be a little more specific on who made such a decision. Was it the chief steward? Did it go to the SOM as a protest or appeal?
    dick patullo
    ner scca IT7 Rx7

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffYoung View Post
    That's just crazy and in my view shows the lack of respect teh series gets from SCCA. It was last race on Sunday right, when everyone wanted to go home?
    No offence but I do not get it when people make comments like that. SCCA is 65000 members most of whom have never even heard of this series. What is that supposed to mean?
    dick patullo
    ner scca IT7 Rx7

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    Quote Originally Posted by dickita15 View Post
    No offence but I do not get it when people make comments like that. SCCA is 65000 members most of whom have never even heard of this series. What is that supposed to mean?
    I'm pretty sure he means the local Southeast SCCA members and decision makers, not SCCA nationwide. Many of the SE racers have long felt the Carolina Cup series sort of gets the short end of the stick when it comes to scheduling on the weekends.

    I haven't ever run it competitively so I don't really know. I do know one of the reasons I don't run it occasionally for seat time is the run group placement. Naturally, as a SARRC fan I would not want to trade my SARRC run group placement for Carolina Cup.
    Last edited by Ron Earp; 03-15-2009 at 10:04 AM.

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    No offense taken Dick, I was imprecise with my words. Ron's explanation is dead on as to what I meant.

    CCPS gets the short end of the stick from each region it runs in. It's always the last run group. It's always the first to have things like the above happen.

    Look, NCR is a GREAT region. The best run I've seen, but it alwys seems like CCPS has stuff like that happening to them which really hurts would could be a fantastic series.
    NC Region
    1980 ITS Triumph TR8

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    Thanks for the clarification. So the series gets poor support from the two or three people who set schedules and such for the region. I hate to be a ass but I get pretty tired of threads that say SCCA sucks because there is a disagreement with one steward or region official.
    dick patullo
    ner scca IT7 Rx7

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffYoung View Post
    No offense taken Dick, I was imprecise with my words. Ron's explanation is dead on as to what I meant.

    CCPS gets the short end of the stick from each region it runs in. It's always the last run group. It's always the first to have things like the above happen.

    Look, NCR is a GREAT region. The best run I've seen, but it alwys seems like CCPS has stuff like that happening to them which really hurts would could be a fantastic series.
    I would hope this was protested at the track and will go to appeals. It is idiotic to believe a race was not considered over after the checkered was displayed. Real black eye for the region and anyone involved. T&S should easily be able to score this from the AMB data. Any of us could do it from Mylaps.

    You need to remember Jeff and Ron that CCPS placement on the schedule is dictated by SARRC rules that require "other" races be scheduled AFTER SARRC. Sucks, but it is a SARRC weekend.
    Steve Eckerich
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    Quote Originally Posted by seckerich View Post
    You need to remember Jeff and Ron that CCPS placement on the schedule is dictated by SARRC rules that require "other" races be scheduled AFTER SARRC. Sucks, but it is a SARRC weekend.
    Hey, I'm ok with it since I'm a SARRC fan. I think a fair number of folks don't know those rules existed though, I didn't.

    I certainly think the rules could be modified to accommodate another series though. That is to say, we're a club by members for members so if members are interested in changing those scheduling rules it should be possible.

    Now, put my selfish hat on - I like it the way it is now. I like the SARRC races first in the schedule since that is the series I'm interested in racing. But I can see a lot of Carolina Cup fans would like it reversed and I respect that.

    Pretty screwed up on the scoring of this race though. I just can't see how something like that could be allowed to happen. Checker is out, race over, period.

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    Without all of the details I can't say for sure, but it would seem clear that the last scored lap should determine the finishing order per the GCR. That said, I hope you filed protest on time. From my experience the officials could burn the GCR and pick any winner they want and if the protest isn't filed within 30 minutes no one will ever review the decision again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Earp View Post

    Pretty screwed up on the scoring of this race though. I just can't see how something like that could be allowed to happen. Checker is out, race over, period.
    Ron,

    ......... If I had not witnessed this myself I would not have believed it. The flag man made a mistake and flagged the second place car as the leader. So, according to the GCR, the race is not over until the leader takes the checkered flag.

    ........ Now, in my opinion, this creates an unsafe condition on track. Some drivers ( mostly without communication with the pits ) have slowed and are supposedly on their cool down lap, while a few drivers are still at speed because the flag man pulled the checkered flag momentarily causing more confusion. So, now we have cars on two different agendas on course. The best thing they could have done ( instead of nothing ) would have been to throw a full course caution.

    ........ I know this scenario does not exist in the rule book. But after talking to a driver that was on track at the time, I bet it was quite strange. He was passed on track, at speed, by a car in his class, after he ( but not the other guy ) had taken the checkered flag. ....... Cause for concern YES !!! Why ???? because of the safety reasons. If the driver I talked to had not had the experience to see that the car catching him had not slowed, it could have had catastrophic results.

    ... This situation should have been avoided. Quickly and responsibly. But it was not and is surely a "Black Eye" for the club.......

    .... I hope it gets resolved amicably
    Last edited by Hotshoe; 03-15-2009 at 01:20 PM.

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    Ok, so it was a flagging error....that's easier to swallow.
    NC Region
    1980 ITS Triumph TR8

  15. #15

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    If I might........

    First, the Carolina Cup Pro Series (CCPS) is a great series. It's a "regional" series. And, historically speaking, we do get the short end of the stick regarding scheduling (always running as the last group)....I wish that could change just every once and again but so be it. This issue is not the fault of the CCPS or its Administrators!

    Second, the NC Region of SCCA, of which I am a part, is a great region with some/many really great folks being involved with it.

    Third, there is a large number of very upset folks out there right now over what happened last weekend at VIR.

    Fourth, I herein acknowledge that the workers are volunteers.......I Love Em' and know that they are invaluable if we want to race at all.

    Let me relate what I think happened and, yes, there were mistakes made that had finish position implication for many but that also had significant safety-related issues for many as well.

    As I was approaching the finsih line nearing the end of the 45 minute timed race, I was displayed the checkered flag while I was IT-7 class leader (not the overall leader). The overtall leader was some 20+ cars behind me. I did what I usually do after receiving the checkered flag, as did the cars that I could see behind me, and that was to slow to a safe "cool-down" lap speed and proceed cautiously to the pits in accordance with various related sections of the GCR. Not since the very, very early part of the race had my car been in any other than first IT-7 position.

    Upon coming out of T17 and making the slow turn onto Pit Road, one or more cars came up behind me at or near race speed and continued along the front straight where the checkered flag was still/again/? being displayed.

    Upon arrival at the point where we usually pit-out to go to impound, we were atypically directed to the end of pit road and around the far end of the pit wall. Apparently, this was because we were being directed across the timing line where many of the cars (unbeknownst to them.......and it was never mentioned subsequently at impound) for the intentional scoring of their "last lap".......this after a full cool-down lap and having traversed pit road at slow speed!

    As it turns out, the checkered flag was displayed early to me, and to some other portion of the field. We are not talking a "bit" early as might be the case when an overall leader is approaching the finish line on their last lap while over-taking lapped traffic; we are talking about the flag being displayed some 22 cars early!

    At impound, it was announced by the Chief Steward that the flag had been thrown early and that the scoring of the race was to revert back to the previous lap where the proper position of all cars was known. This would appear to be a most reasonable response/action given the situation and circumstance.

    The mess began when the Starter threw the flag early....this is unfortunate but, should be considered a "forgivable" offence (in my opinion) by anyone who has ever made an honest mistake.

    But here is where the "unforgiveable" begins to occurr. First, there were, for whatever reason and as my in-car video clearly shows, cars on the track that were apparently at race speed while others had slowed. I cannot confirm this myself, but it was stated by someone that the checkered flag may have been thrown, then retracted, then re-displayed. Whatever happened, it was not a safe condition. Second, being intentionally directed down pit road to cross the timing line to end the scoring of the race is a blunder of significant magnitude.....and no driver that I know was aware that was happening... most drivers were just following the directions of the workers/officials.

    Sadly, it was suggested to me by an official (I did/do not know them.....I wish I had been more attentive to detail at impound), that perhaps I should have known that I was not on my last lap, or in this case that my total time had not yet elapsed as though suggesting that I should have ignored the Checkered Flag and continued to race. Huh? Lets see.....how many different parts of the GCR would that violate! I just obey the rules and race until it's over.

    I believe that a protest was filed by a SM driver (not that it makes any difference whatsoever who filed the protest because they are entitled to file a protest just as much as anyone else is) who would gain a position or two because of the confusion, if upheld. I am not privy to the specific content of the protest but it likely has to do with the part of the GCR pertaining to "Winners" and Eary Checkered Flag". The protest was apparently upheld at the track and it was determined by the SOM, erroneously in my opinion, that the scoring was just fine as though nothing out of the ordinary had happened. Remember,nad this is speculation based on experience, that the CCPS was run as the last race of the day.....there may have been excessive "hurry" to "just do something" (assumed only because of the unfair and enreasonable Official Results) and, many of the workers, drivers, etc. had already left the track. I left quite late and had still heard nothing of the protest. Later on last week, I heard rumblings of the Provisional results being over-turned in lieu of the FUBAR finishing order and, yesterday, received E-Mail notification of that SOM decision. Included in those Official Results was notification that my car had not won the race....

    So, and in factual recapitualtion:

    1) Checkered Flag thrown way too early and possible inconsitently to the field;
    2) Cars allowed to continue racing when others had been ordered to stop racing by virtue of having been displayed the checkered flag;
    3) Cars being scored on pit road after a cool-down lap as though evertything was A-OK;
    4) A reasonable decision made by the Chief Steward being over-turned by the SOM (for whatever reason);

    In apparent and specualtive recapitulation:

    5) A disregard for many things GCR;
    6) An SOM who just didn't/doesn't "get it"

    As I suggested earlier, an honest mistake is one to be ultimately forgiven. And I'll even go so far as to say that late on Sunday afternoon, when everyone has just about had enough racing and is ready to go home, is somewhat understandable (most of us have been "there"). But to ignore all reason, when errors were made that affected not only the final results in a significant way, but also affected the safety aspect of the race as a whole, would not, IMHO, be forgiveable. There are numerous protests being drafted by more than a few drivers/entrants. And numerous appeal(s) are sure follow if need be. My true hope is that the SCCA, local and/or National, will see this for what it is and do the right, reasonable thing without any strained or tortured interpretation as to actual events and circumstances.

    Time will tell.....hopefully to a larger extent than it did during the race!
    Gary Gentry
    NC Region
    #4 IT7/ITA
    2008 CCPS ITA Champion
    2008 SAARC IT-7 3rd Overall
    2009 CCPS IT-7 Champion
    2010 CCPS IT-7 Champion
    #4 Car>>>Sad State of Affairs

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    Regarding any protests beyond the one made at the track that formed the basis for the subsequent scoring "strangeness", none or little of this was publicly/officially known until this weekend when the "Official" results were E-Mailed to the competitors. I have been told that the "protest clock" does not start until the Official Results have been made public and delivered to the competeitors via US Mail. Any initial protest would be against the Official Results. Hopefully, the powers that be can suck thier chests back in and entertain a well-founded protest.
    Gary Gentry
    NC Region
    #4 IT7/ITA
    2008 CCPS ITA Champion
    2008 SAARC IT-7 3rd Overall
    2009 CCPS IT-7 Champion
    2010 CCPS IT-7 Champion
    #4 Car>>>Sad State of Affairs

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    Gary, thanks for that. Your first bit of your first post sums up my thoughts on this: NCR is great, CCPS is great, CCPS gets short shrift sometimes, which is part of life (although I think with a little help that series could really prosper).

    This doesn't look like anything other than a mess that could have happend with the SARRC, and not CCPS specific (when I read the first post I wondered if they were trying to get the race done early, doesn't sound that way).

    In any event, I hope this gets sorted. NCR region runs a great race weekend, this is VERY rare for them.
    NC Region
    1980 ITS Triumph TR8

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    Wow. Good question: How does one file a protest within the required time when the action being protested happens days(?) after the event is over...?

    K

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    I am not sure why it isn't as simple as this:

    We threw the flag early. We blew it. We are sorry for creating an unsafe condition on course and we are glad it did not result in any injuries.

    The race will be scored from the timing sheets of the last lap order prior to the first checkered being waived (ie: the last official order of cars before some thought the race was over). Example: Leader was on lap 18 when non-leader got checkered. Finish is standings from lap 17. (or whatever is accurate)
    Andy Bettencourt
    New England Region 188967

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    Thanks for the facts. It certainly is an interesting case of anything can happen.
    Starter goofed it happens.
    Cars were run down pit lane to timing line, no big deal, they are just gathering data. Really did not mean much.
    Sound like the Chief Steward made the right call in impound.
    It sounds like we will be reading about the SOM in Fastrack.
    As to the unsafe cool off lap you have to be on your toes. Someone could not see a checker in any race. Back when I was flagging a lot I saw a lot of dumb incidents on cool off laps. I would never put down the blue flag on the cool off lap because way too often I had someone come screaming down on someone not paying attention.
    The only thing I can think of that the official could have done when they realized the situation if they felt it was unsafe is a black flag all stations.
    dick patullo
    ner scca IT7 Rx7

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