Hey, hey, ho, ho. SFI has got to go..

[jjjanos]

The new fire system requirement in the GCR has got to go. As far as I can tell, it serves only two purposes:
1. To put more money into the hands of SFI. You cannot be certified w/o paying their extortion-like per-unit fee.
2. To put more money into the hands of people who make these systems. If you're system is discharged, you no longer can refill it yourself. You must have it refilled by someone who is "certified". I.e. see item #1.

Can someone please explain to me the value-added to the racers by this requirement?

Frankly, if you are contemplating building a car, I advise you to buy the rollcage/logbook of a wrecked older car. The logbook goes with the cage, not the car. I.e. all of the grandfathering goes with the cage.

I'm really getting angry.

[Greg Amy]

The logbook goes with the cage, not the car. I.e. all of the grandfathering goes with the cage.

Actually, technically speaking, I don't think there's nothing that says you can't recage an already-logbooked car, or if you do that you have to re-issue the logbook...ergo, the numbers can be transferred to the new main roll hoop...

Just sayin'...

[shwah]

I recaged my car a few years ago, and kept the same log book.

[924Guy]

It's even worse than you think (I was pondering putting this firebottle issue in the H+N thread, but figured it was too off-topic, and I was too lazy to start my own thread).

Anyway, yes, it's worse than you even state; apparently (according to our local race shop guy, Keith Averill of Averill Racing Stuff) when you get an SFI firebottle - it also has to go back to the mfgr every 2 years to be inspected!!! What a scam!!!

Also, the SFI ones tend to be too tall to fit in-between the rails of a formula car in the standard fitment. Fortunately FIA ones are still allowed, but they have to be on the FIA list, and finding the list is a PITA.

Sadly, I will be buying a new firebottle system for my new car; even though it came with a system and logbook, since I will have to get it re-homologated due to a class change, I expect (taking an FF and making a DSR), I have no choice but to buy new...

I'll also proably have to suck it up and buy a HANS to replace my ISAAC, eventually...

[Knestis]

You're all paranoid about SFI. They have your best interests at heart.

...or maybe...

DON'T START WHINING NOW. YOU'VE SEEN THIS COMING FROM MILES OFF.

K

[jjjanos]

You're all paranoid about SFI. They have your best interests at heart.

...or maybe...

DON'T START WHINING NOW. YOU'VE SEEN THIS COMING FROM MILES OFF.

K

Who said I'm starting to whine? I've opposed them along. What I'm starting to get is angry.

[JamesB]

Meh, it is what it is.

[DavidM]

How much of the cage has to go into the new car? I'm "rebodying" the 240 and I was just going to get a new cage built since I wanted a lot of cage work done anyways. Can you just cut out the part with the log book number and transfer that?

David

[tom91ita]

.....

I'll also proably have to suck it up and buy a HANS to replace my ISAAC, eventually...

and then it will be an FIA seat.

and then it will need to be replaced every 5 years due to UV damage of the composite materials.

and then it will be the car's chassis....

[frnkhous]

haha man scca just got stricter than grand am/nascar on firesystems. atleast they just check the guage not a date of certification... this is ridiculous.

[Speed Raycer]

I must have dozed off on this one... WhenTF did this go down??????

[lateapex911]

Don't hold back your hate just for the lawyers, Derek, be more even handed and spread it to people who milk things for all they are worth, and the system that allows it...

I actually have some friends in each of your "hate groups"...they just want equal love!

You say, "Hey, it's fine, it's for my safety, and racings expensive anyway"....well, sure, but the point here is that it's extra unneeded expense, extra hassle, and it basically puts money into an organizations hands that does nothing to increase my actual safety!

[Xian]

I must have dozed off on this one... WhenTF did this go down??????

x2

As someone who has a new car build in progress, I'm very interested in seeing where/when this was published. I've got a brand new AFFF system in the garage and a car that's about 95% ready for a log book. Don't tell me that the firesystem I have is a paperweight now.

Christian

[jjjanos]

Seems like in this case, yes, SCCA did a decent job (or tried to, at least) - all existing cars are grandfathered.

Which does nothing to protect them from lawsuits. In fact, it probably makes them more likely to lose.
Plantiff Attorney - "So, being fully aware of the dangers of uncertified fire systems, SCCA allowed my client to compete in a car using substandard equipment?"
SCCA - "Yes."
Plantiff Attorney - "Your honor, we ask for immediate judgement with triple damages on account of the defendents own admission of gross negligence."

As builder of a new car in addition to owner of an existing car, I don't have a big problem with buying a new system that is approved; this IMO is a reasonable expense in my safety, and I truly do go to extensive lengths to be safe (note that I was an early adopter of ISAAC and center net).

The certification increases your safety, if and only if, SFI conducts random and unannounced testing of both completed product and the manufacturing process. Anything else and the only two things you are relying upon are the willingness of the manufacturer to pay SFI's protection money and the manufacturer's reputation. W/o certification, you are relying on the manufacturer's reputation. I.e. no delta.

x2

As someone who has a new car build in progress, I'm very interested in seeing where/when this was published. I've got a brand new AFFF system in the garage and a car that's about 95% ready for a log book. Don't tell me that the firesystem I have is a paperweight now.

Christian

I won't tell you that. What you have is a very effective fire system that you can continue to use.... as long as you have a fire bottle in your car (assuming it is IT).

[JamesB]

So Jeff, what is your solution if SFI and FIA are not enough?

PS- Don't even suggest yet another standards instatution. You already have 2, what is your solution above and beyond the two that already exist. Adding a 3rd is not a solution.

[jjjanos]

So Jeff, what is your solution if SFI and FIA are not enough?

It is not that SFI and FIA are not enough. It is that SFI and FIA are too much, or more accurately, the SFI system creates, for them, a powerful set of incentives that undermine the stated purpose for their existence, i.e. driver safety.

1. Direct conflict of interest. I believe that SFI gets a fee on each certified unit that is sold. SFI's incentive is now maximizing units sold and no longer devising the best standard.
2. Direct conflict of interest. SFI only collects a fee if there is a standard. When examining whether a standard needs to be established, SFI will always determine it is needed.
3. Indirect conflict of interest. The companies being regulated by SFI write the regulations. Problem - the standard will be written to the lowest level needed to obtain standard's committee approval. No member sitting on the committee will support a standard that negatively impacts their business. (I don't recall what safety item this was about, but I seem to recall SFI trying to write standards for a product in which the industry was split about 50/50 between two technologies. Group A wants to outlaw group B. Group B wants to outlaw group A. Result - no standard.)
4. AFAIK, lack of verification. Does SFI do random checks of both finished product and quality control?

Solutions:
1. SCCA simply states the minimum requirement for safety equipment (see roll bars) and put the responsibility back on the consumer who purchases the item.
2. Disband SFI. Replace with an organization similar to Underwriters Lab which, I believe, does not have income dependent on the sales of certified products. Eliminate the involvement of manufacturers from the standards process.

[Tristan Smith]

Hey Christian, on that link you provided to the IOPort system you bought it says this.....


New rules for the SCCA Club Racing in 2009 requires a SFI 17.1 Certified fire system in all newly logbooked cars in classes requiring fire systems. Upgrade to a SFI 17.1 fire system for just $10.00. Additionally, SCCA will allow the club racer to use the ESS refill kits without requiring any re-certification. This is a great advantage for the club racer over any other system since if they are fired, they must be sent back to the factory to be refilled and re-certified.

So is that true? And if so, doesn't that bypass the issue? I realize that that we are talking about re-certifing every two years, but come on....If I can refill myself?

[jjjanos]

Hey Christian, on that link you provided to the IOPort system you bought it says this.....


New rules for the SCCA Club Racing in 2009 requires a SFI 17.1 Certified fire system in all newly logbooked cars in classes requiring fire systems. Upgrade to a SFI 17.1 fire system for just $10.00. Additionally, SCCA will allow the club racer to use the ESS refill kits without requiring any re-certification. This is a great advantage for the club racer over any other system since if they are fired, they must be sent back to the factory to be refilled and re-certified.

So is that true? And if so, doesn't that bypass the issue? I realize that that we are talking about re-certifing every two years, but come on....If I can refill myself?

Unless it says so in the GCR, I wouldn't count on it.

[ekim952522000]

x2

As someone who has a new car build in progress, I'm very interested in seeing where/when this was published. I've got a brand new AFFF system in the garage and a car that's about 95% ready for a log book. Don't tell me that the firesystem I have is a paperweight now.

Christian

Christian is yuor system on this list? Mine is I have the SPA system. If it is listed you are ok.
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public...her_system.pdf

[Xian]

I won't tell you that. What you have is a very effective fire system that you can continue to use.... as long as you have a fire bottle in your car (assuming it is IT).

That looks like the route I'm going to have to go...

Christian is yuor system on this list? Mine is I have the SPA system. If it is listed you are ok.
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public...her_system.pdf

I didn't see it... I've got this one: http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant...egory_Code=ESS But don't remember if it has the "extra" $10 upgrade to SFI... the system was bought middle of last year.

F*ck. Is this enough to get me racing with NASA? Definitely getting closer to going somewhere else.

Christian