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Thread: 2009: Kumho vs. Hankook vs. Hoosier vs. BFG... fight!

  1. #1
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    Default 2009: Kumho vs. Hankook vs. Hoosier vs. BFG... fight!

    Hi folks, old topic, new year. I'm pondering tire choices for my ITS Miata:
    - Kumho V710 205/50-15
    - Hankook Z214 C51 225/45-15
    - Hoosier R6 225/45-15
    - BFG R1 205/50-15

    I can get a couple sets of Kumhos cheap from a team that has leftovers from the 25-Hour. They'll also work well for the occasional autocross if I so choose. At 18 lbs they're the lightest tire.

    The Hoosiers are the stickiest and that ~9" tread width is unmatched, so I'd expect phenomenal grip, but as the shortest-lived tires costing about $200 more a set than any other, I'm willing to go without until my talent catches up.

    AIM touts the Hankook as a miracle tire (sticky as Hoosiers, durable as Toyos). I've heard some people say the same about the BFG R1. I've seen very little actual data or even anecdotal evidence on either.

    Hankook: 225-wide means more tread means more grip, but at 22 lbs apiece that's 4 lbs more unsprung weight per corner than the Kumhos, and the little bit of time I might drop with the extra grip I might sacrifice on the straights. My searches also found much grumbling about availability; is it still an issue?

    BFG R1: the new kid on the block, and mostly an unknown quantity. Nothing to choose price-wise vs. the Kumhos or Hankooks.
    Last edited by vtluu; 02-10-2009 at 12:01 PM.
    Viet-Tam Luu (a.k.a. "Tam")
    Director, SCCA San Francisco Region
    2011 SFR-SCCA ITS Champion
    #12 ITS (1999 Mazda MX-5 Miata)
    #12 STU (2003 Mitsubishi Evo 8)

  2. #2
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    Choose the tire with the best contingency program (the one where you're most likely to get some money or tires for free) and run those.

  3. #3
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    I only run the R6. Longevity is much improved over earlier versions. We get 10-12 good heat cycles out of them.
    NC Region
    1980 ITS Triumph TR8

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by betamotorsports View Post
    Choose the tire with the best contingency program (the one where you're most likely to get some money or tires for free) and run those.
    Thanks John. I'm only running regional SCCA events and as near as I can tell, given the current economic climate and all, the amount of contingency money that can be had is about... zero.
    Viet-Tam Luu (a.k.a. "Tam")
    Director, SCCA San Francisco Region
    2011 SFR-SCCA ITS Champion
    #12 ITS (1999 Mazda MX-5 Miata)
    #12 STU (2003 Mitsubishi Evo 8)

  5. #5
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    You'd be surprised. We have a very good Hoosier contingency down here via Appalachian Tire. Not pushing Hoosiers on a noob, if I were you I'd go Toyos, but there are contingencies out there.
    NC Region
    1980 ITS Triumph TR8

  6. #6
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    Basic rule of racing: The bestest fastest tire on earth is a free tire.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnRW View Post
    Basic rule of racing: The bestest fastest tire on earth is a free tire.
    Given the level of competition around here I'm not optimistic about my odds of winning any such things.

    I've got 2 sets of Toyo RA1s but I'm looking to upgrade. I've got a set of Hankook C50s with 1.5 practice/test days on them so I guess those are better than the RA1s and "free".

    I just ordered a new set of Kumho W710s for the 1-2 rain races we might have here in this region... I didn't switch from SM to IT to keep all my money in my wallet you know!
    Viet-Tam Luu (a.k.a. "Tam")
    Director, SCCA San Francisco Region
    2011 SFR-SCCA ITS Champion
    #12 ITS (1999 Mazda MX-5 Miata)
    #12 STU (2003 Mitsubishi Evo 8)

  8. #8

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    Kumho still has a contingency plan this year, but it is not as good as last year.

  9. #9
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    Tire truths:

    Hoosiers: The defacto standard...fast, and now live a bit longer.

    Hankooks: The challenger. (I set records at every track except one I ran at this year on kooks,), their life isn't well known, but the money is (was) good.

    Toyos. slower, but last forever. The money tire if you can't win.

    In the rain:

    Dirt Stockers are the gold standard.
    Close second, and better in the not torrential stuff because they won't chunk as soon: The new Hoosier molded radial rain.

    All others a distant second


    The higher unsprung weight of the Hoosiers is irrelevant compared to the grip in the final lap time analysis.
    Jake Gulick


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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebb View Post
    Kumho still has a contingency plan this year, but it is not as good as last year.
    Can you point me toward this? I don't see any non-national contingencies on the scca site (eye roll) http://www.scca.com/contingencies.aspx?hub=1&cid=9 But I also don't see anything on the Kumho site.
    Jim Hardesty
    ITC 1986 Honda Civic Diablo Rojo Verde
    Never argue your tab at the end of the night. Remember, you're hammered and they’re sober.

  11. #11
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    Jim, don't make me post the obligatory LetMeGoogleThatForYou link:

    http://kumhomotorsports.wordpress.com/contingency/

    My theory: Kumho is cutting down on contingency costs by making the contingency program info really hard to find.
    Viet-Tam Luu (a.k.a. "Tam")
    Director, SCCA San Francisco Region
    2011 SFR-SCCA ITS Champion
    #12 ITS (1999 Mazda MX-5 Miata)
    #12 STU (2003 Mitsubishi Evo 8)

  12. #12
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    Yes, I am quite embarassed that I wasted my time looking on the SCCA and Kumho websites for information. I should have known better.

    This is an interesting notion. I thought the whole point of contingency was to motivate us to buy your brand of tires. In order for that to be effective people need to know about the program.

    Right now we have a contingency from Kumho that is not accessible from their kumhousa web page. Instead there is a secret motorsports blog site that is not linked from the corporate site and can only be found with a google search. Not one of the authorized dealers I looked at today has a single word about contingency, let alone a link to the secret site.

    Hoosier Tire Midwest has a contingency but they won't tell you what it is unless you call. I hate to look a gift horse in the mouth, but do you see my point? How hard would it be to post the payouts here and motivate people to buy your product?

    Right now the secret Kumho program seems better than the secret Hoosier program. And I just got a Hooiser sweatshirt for Chirstmas...
    Last edited by jumbojimbo; 02-10-2009 at 03:38 PM.
    Jim Hardesty
    ITC 1986 Honda Civic Diablo Rojo Verde
    Never argue your tab at the end of the night. Remember, you're hammered and they’re sober.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by lateapex911 View Post
    Tire truths:

    Hoosiers: The defacto standard...fast, and now live a bit longer.

    Hankooks: The challenger. (I set records at every track except one I ran at this year on kooks,), their life isn't well known, but the money is (was) good.

    Toyos. slower, but last forever. The money tire if you can't win.

    In the rain:

    Dirt Stockers are the gold standard.
    Close second, and better in the not torrential stuff because they won't chunk as soon: The new Hoosier molded radial rain.

    All others a distant second

    The higher unsprung weight of the Hoosiers is irrelevant compared to the grip in the final lap time analysis.
    It sounds like you have a lot of experience. I have never run Hankooks, but I agree with your analysis relative to the Hoosiers (dry and wet) and the Toyo's. I was wondering if you (or anyone) have any experience on how the Kumho V710 would fit in with the Hoosier/Hankook/Toyo? I was also wondering if anyone had any experience with the new Kumho wet that looks to be competing with the Hoosier wet radial?
    Jared Cromas
    2012-2010 & 2008 Midwestern Council ITA Champion
    2008 Midwestern Council Driver of the Year
    SCSCC Race Steward
    #111 FP/ST '90 Gold/Blk Acura Integra

  14. #14
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    For the umpteenth time--HOOSIER.

    Case closed.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mc-integra111 View Post
    It sounds like you have a lot of experience. I have never run Hankooks, but I agree with your analysis relative to the Hoosiers (dry and wet) and the Toyo's. I was wondering if you (or anyone) have any experience on how the Kumho V710 would fit in with the Hoosier/Hankook/Toyo? I was also wondering if anyone had any experience with the new Kumho wet that looks to be competing with the Hoosier wet radial?
    I have zero experience with the kuhmo. Here's why:

    They are slower than the Hoosier by all accounts.
    They don't last as long as the Toyo, by most accounts.

    So, they seem to be a compomise. And they offer(ed) decent contigency.

    But, that's only if you win against decent fields. And where I race, they run on hoosiers. So, for me, the tire choice had to be quick enough to win on, and (if so, pay back some money. The second part is useless without the first.

    So, the question always boils down to, how popular and competitive is it in your area? And, how is your budget?

    If you NEED to keep it cheap, AND the competition is stout, (and you were new and really didn't have much realistic chance at winning), the answer was the Toyos.

    If you COULD win on fast tires, and could use some money, then, (regional contingencies notwithstanding) the Hankooks were a good option.
    The hoosiers have some payouts, but it's regionally dependent.
    And if you care only about winning, you have two choices:
    1-Test Hankooks and hoosiers back to back.
    2- Just run hoosiers.


    As far as contingencies, many companies make it hard to collect....not impossible, but they aren't looking to make it super easy. They get most of the press from offering the money, not from paying out. It's advertising for them.
    Last edited by lateapex911; 02-10-2009 at 04:03 PM.
    Jake Gulick


    CarriageHouse Motorsports
    for sale: 2003 Audi A4 Quattro, clean, serviced, dark green, auto, sunroof, tan leather with 75K miles.
    IT-7 #57 RX-7 race car
    Porsche 1973 911E street/fun car
    BMW 2003 M3 cab, sun car.
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    lateapex911(at)gmail(dot)com


  16. #16
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    I have heard great things about the new BFG's that's what I am planning on trying first supposed to almost as fast as the Hoosiers and last longer.
    Mike Uhlinger



  17. #17
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    I have talked with Goodyear and thay are targeting mid-year for a reintro of the GSC-S/RS.
    Andy Bettencourt
    New England Region 188967

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Bettencourt View Post
    I have talked with Goodyear and thay are targeting mid-year for a reintro of the GSC-S/RS.
    Sizes? Cost will undoubtedly be high..
    Jake Gulick


    CarriageHouse Motorsports
    for sale: 2003 Audi A4 Quattro, clean, serviced, dark green, auto, sunroof, tan leather with 75K miles.
    IT-7 #57 RX-7 race car
    Porsche 1973 911E street/fun car
    BMW 2003 M3 cab, sun car.
    GMC Sierra Tow Vehicle
    New England Region
    lateapex911(at)gmail(dot)com


  19. #19
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    The consensus is that the Hoosiers are faster. The problem with the consensus is that there isn't a great deal of experience on the Hankooks because it is often impossible to get them. I ran them on a CRX in ITB. When comparing sticker versus sticker, I was about 1.5 seconds off the fast laps set by the BMWs in the first MARRS at Summit Point.

    Full disclosure: my car was too soft in the front and had an open-differential. In short, it was an ill-handling pig that couldn't put power down in twisty bits. I expect that the differential will be less now.

    In the Smurf, I drove on scuffed Hoosiers and scuffed Kooks and couldn't tell the difference.

    I went with the Hankooks because, for the last two years, I could get 4 Kooks for the price of 3 Hoosiers. I have yet to run out of heat cycles in the Kooks. I tend to flat spot them first. (Thus 4 for the price of 3 is real attractive to me.)

  20. #20
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    While you are talking tires.... Any tips for how much cold pressure Hoosiers like? Back in the old days (last time I ran), there was a huge difference between some of the tires as to pressures (BFG, Yoko, Hoosier bias ply etc).... (FWIW, I have a RWD IT car 2030lb w/o driver, struts up front, live axle rear).....

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