IT prep Whp for honda VTEC's

[Bob Roth]

Assuming a build with Hondata 300 with tuning, a quality header, and suitable intake filter, any opinions on what whp are seen for the following VTEC engines. In a separate thread see below, I am saying that the present formula that assumes we can get 25% more hp kills VTEC motors (see below) which are already at their maximum.

To start the discussion I'll give you what I have seen

D16 SOHC VTEC - 160 stock,??
B16 DOHC VTEC -- 160 stock, 150 whp
B18 GSR DOHC VTEC -- 170 stock,??
B18 Type R DOHC VTEC -- 197 stock, 185 whp

Here is my comments regarding the ITR classifications.

I think a root cause of the objection of V8's in ITR is the way the committee assignes clasifications and weights using OEM peak hp. I think this really puts highly tuned honda VTEC cars that have 100 hp/liter at disadvantage when classed against less than 33 to 45 hp/liter american cars.

I have put a lot of work into my VTEC delsol, (Hondata 300, Hytech header, tuned intake, extensive tyno tuning) to get your expected 25% hp increase . I got a bit of midrange but no substantial increase of hp. The result was 150 whp at 7400. Of course from a 1.6 liter engine thats darn good. Why would I expect more? Torque (ignition timing, displacement, and compression ratio) are already good, and the engine is limited by valve float at over 8000. So, no surprise it realy can't be improved upon when its already 100 hp per liter. What do you expect; 125 hp per liter?? That would be a world challenge motor. Forget it.

(ps our 1.8 liter Integra Type R is 184 whp or essentially 100 whp/per literin IT trim and 109 street hp/liter per stock oem rating).

Meanwhile, take you '80's smog motor that that at 33 to 45 hp/liter, put a big exhaust, intake system, and wake up the engine management, extend the RPM/hp peak from 5000 to 6000 rpm and a 25% increase to 40 to 60 hp/liter sounds doable.

The last point is, cheating. At 100 hp/per liter, something like a type r has nothing to work with (it always has a race cam, and it is already reving to 8400 rpm); do I need to use nitrous?. Besides, if cheating is my goal, it would be a lot easier to start cheating with a car who puts out 40 hp per liter than one with 100 hp, come on....

I looked at the ARCC results, no honda's are entered in ITS. The beauty of the modern japanese cars is that on the engine side, they are pretty fully developed and are near IT maximum as stock. Accordingly we are fighting with a way short stick in IT against low power to displacement V8's.

I really think the ITAC should use something other than OEM power when balancing cars. It puts modern cars at a disadvantage, and it puts VTEC hondas at a huge disadvantage.

If the ITAC fixes the way that hp, is rated, I would be fine with V8's in ITR. Don't, and I think more ITR owners will feel the way that current Honda VTEC owners do about their chances to be competitive.

For comparison from Andy's notes and using his formula (IT Weight = 9.95 * (Stock HP) + 890.8), here are ITR stock power per liter

BMW 325 --75 hp/liter
BMW 328 -- 70 hp/liter
944 S2 --66 hp/liter
Maxima -- 72 hp/liter
300zx -- 79 hp/liter
Supra -- 78 hp/liter
Acura type R -- 109 hp/liter

Camaro (5.8 liter) -- 33.3 hp/liter
Ford Mustang (5 liter) -- 45 hp/liter

For some time, the IT formula has killed competitiveness of VTEC honda's. Who knows, if we let V8 cars at 33 to 50 hp/liter use the same formula as 70 to 100 hp per liter nissans, porsche's and toyotas, maybe somebody other than the Honda VTEC racers will realize how unfair the present rating system is.

Please tell me how to get to 125 hp/liter in a honda legally and I will be glad to oblige in retracting these comments.

[lateapex911]

Bob, this is the same post you put in the V8 thread up in rules. should we delete this?

[Xian]

The D16 SOHC VTEC engine was rated at 125hp... those cars are classed in ITA (1992-1995 Civic EX/Si). The later 99+ Si cars used a B16 that was very similar to what's in your Del Sol.

A couple of questions... you mention that you've put time and money into the engine build. Have you take full advantage of the porting and compression bump allowances? How about an overbore?

As far as weight, I think the cars/engines you listed are reasonably classed and weighted. The GSR has been shown to be a podium runner when well driven, developed, and fully 10/10th's built. The Del Sol VTEC, and Civic Si in ITS are both 160#'s lighter with a smaller and less torquey engine... remember "no guarantee of competitiveness".

ARRC entries aren't really indicative of anything... especially this year with the economy iin the toilet. Add to this the fact that both Ivan and Greg Amy both wrote off very strong GSR's within a few months of the ARRC and you really just don't have much of anything there...

Christian

[bamfp]

Since Ivan's GSR is no more. It made 178 whp and 129 wtq. I built the engine when I worked at Sunbelt. This was on a fresh engine with about 30 minutes of break in and dino oil. I still needed to do some intake and exhaust testing. I felt that there was maybe a couple more hp there. We were able to turn it 8600 rpm. It made peak power at 8200. From the few laps that I got to drive it it was like driving and ITC car. It was all about momentum. It would not accel up turn 1 at Road A in 4th. You need to be above 7000rpm all the time. This meant you had 100wtq. So the GSR is about a 20% power increase.

[hondaracer48]

A comment on the GSR driving like an ITC car. Yes you do have to be in the power band, which requires you to be on the gas earlier at the exit of the previous turn. But how about changing the final drive? The 4.78 or the 4.90 final drive would make the GSR a beast in ITS.

[JeffYoung]

Interestingly, those numbers are about what a good ITS RX7 puts out at the wheels. Maybe a bit more power and little less torque.

They seem to do fine at Road Atlanta, and everywhere else for that matter.

Since Ivan's GSR is no more. It made 178 whp and 129 wtq. I built the engine when I worked at Sunbelt. This was on a fresh engine with about 30 minutes of break in and dino oil. I still needed to do some intake and exhaust testing. I felt that there was maybe a couple more hp there. We were able to turn it 8600 rpm. It made peak power at 8200. From the few laps that I got to drive it it was like driving and ITC car. It was all about momentum. It would not accel up turn 1 at Road A in 4th. You need to be above 7000rpm all the time. This meant you had 100wtq. So the GSR is about a 20% power increase.

[hondaracer48]

Yeah but RX-7's are on the dark side VTEC Power baby!!! I really think that GSR's will rule ITS very soon!!

[bamfp]

But the RX-7 does not have 1700# on the front wheels. That is one of the differences.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Since Ivan's GSR is no more. It made 178 whp and 129 wtq. I built the engine when I worked at Sunbelt. This was on a fresh engine with about 30 minutes of break in and dino oil. I still needed to do some intake and exhaust testing. I felt that there was maybe a couple more hp there. We were able to turn it 8600 rpm. It made peak power at 8200. From the few laps that I got to drive it it was like driving and ITC car. It was all about momentum. It would not accel up turn 1 at Road A in 4th. You need to be above 7000rpm all the time. This meant you had 100wtq. So the GSR is about a 20% power increase.

170*1.25=212.5

Assuming 15% drivetrain loss, that is ~ 180.6whp. I think that is pretty darn close. You did good.

[jimmyc]

From the few laps that I got to drive it it was like driving and ITC car.

This really makes me scratch my head.

ITS GSR race weight 2590lbs

178 whp

129 ft/tq to the wheels

Gear Ratio
1st 3.23
2nd 1.9
3rd 1.36
4th 1.034
5th .787

ITA Integra LS/RS/GS race weight 2620 (for the DC) and 2595 (DA)
(for both the DA and DC, i have never seen a difference in the two)
149 whp

135 ft/tq to the wheels

gear ratio (DC/DA same)
1st 3.23
2nd 1.9
3rd 1.269
4th .966
5th .714


Now how does a car that weighs less then either similiar(da)/exact(DC) chassis minus the motor/trans, but has more HP similiar TQ, and better gearing feel like an ITC car?

[hondaracer48]

Jimmy, maybe he came from a GT1 car and couldn't correct his mistakes with HP ok ok i'll stop being bad.

[bamfp]

This really makes me scratch my head.

ITS GSR race weight 2590lbs

178 whp

129 ft/tq to the wheels

Gear Ratio
1st 3.23
2nd 1.9
3rd 1.36
4th 1.034
5th .787

ITA Integra LS/RS/GS race weight 2620 (for the DC) and 2595 (DA)
(for both the DA and DC, i have never seen a difference in the two)
149 whp

135 ft/tq to the wheels

gear ratio (DC/DA same)
1st 3.23
2nd 1.9
3rd 1.269
4th .966
5th .714


Now how does a car that weighs less then either similiar(da)/exact(DC) chassis minus the motor/trans, but has more HP similiar TQ, and better gearing feel like an ITC car?

Ever driven an ITC car? They do not accelerate up hills very well.

[jimmyc]

Ever driven an ITC car? They do not accelerate up hills very well.

Something very close to it, but no never a a real ITC car.


I just think it's weird that an ITA car with alittle more weight, and less power can accelerate up the hill but a GSR can't.

[JLawton]

Assuming a build with Hondata 300 with tuning, a quality header, and suitable intake filter, any opinions on what whp are seen for the following VTEC engines. In a separate thread see below, I am saying that the present formula that assumes we can get 25% more hp kills VTEC motors (see below) which are already at their maximum.

To start the discussion I'll give you what I have seen

D16 SOHC VTEC - 160 stock,??
B16 DOHC VTEC -- 160 stock, 150 whp
B18 GSR DOHC VTEC -- 170 stock,??
B18 Type R DOHC VTEC -- 197 stock, 185 whp

Here is my comments regarding the ITR classifications.

I think a root cause of the objection of V8's in ITR is the way the committee assignes clasifications and weights using OEM peak hp. I think this really puts highly tuned honda VTEC cars that have 100 hp/liter at disadvantage when classed against less than 33 to 45 hp/liter american cars.

I have put a lot of work into my VTEC delsol, (Hondata 300, Hytech header, tuned intake, extensive tyno tuning) to get your expected 25% hp increase . I got a bit of midrange but no substantial increase of hp. The result was 150 whp at 7400. Of course from a 1.6 liter engine thats darn good. Why would I expect more? Torque (ignition timing, displacement, and compression ratio) are already good, and the engine is limited by valve float at over 8000. So, no surprise it realy can't be improved upon when its already 100 hp per liter. What do you expect; 125 hp per liter?? That would be a world challenge motor. Forget it.

(ps our 1.8 liter Integra Type R is 184 whp or essentially 100 whp/per literin IT trim and 109 street hp/liter per stock oem rating).

Meanwhile, take you '80's smog motor that that at 33 to 45 hp/liter, put a big exhaust, intake system, and wake up the engine management, extend the RPM/hp peak from 5000 to 6000 rpm and a 25% increase to 40 to 60 hp/liter sounds doable.

The last point is, cheating. At 100 hp/per liter, something like a type r has nothing to work with (it always has a race cam, and it is already reving to 8400 rpm); do I need to use nitrous?. Besides, if cheating is my goal, it would be a lot easier to start cheating with a car who puts out 40 hp per liter than one with 100 hp, come on....

I looked at the ARCC results, no honda's are entered in ITS. The beauty of the modern japanese cars is that on the engine side, they are pretty fully developed and are near IT maximum as stock. Accordingly we are fighting with a way short stick in IT against low power to displacement V8's.

I really think the ITAC should use something other than OEM power when balancing cars. It puts modern cars at a disadvantage, and it puts VTEC hondas at a huge disadvantage.

If the ITAC fixes the way that hp, is rated, I would be fine with V8's in ITR. Don't, and I think more ITR owners will feel the way that current Honda VTEC owners do about their chances to be competitive.

For comparison from Andy's notes and using his formula (IT Weight = 9.95 * (Stock HP) + 890.8), here are ITR stock power per liter

BMW 325 --75 hp/liter
BMW 328 -- 70 hp/liter
944 S2 --66 hp/liter
Maxima -- 72 hp/liter
300zx -- 79 hp/liter
Supra -- 78 hp/liter
Acura type R -- 109 hp/liter

Camaro (5.8 liter) -- 33.3 hp/liter
Ford Mustang (5 liter) -- 45 hp/liter

For some time, the IT formula has killed competitiveness of VTEC honda's. Who knows, if we let V8 cars at 33 to 50 hp/liter use the same formula as 70 to 100 hp per liter nissans, porsche's and toyotas, maybe somebody other than the Honda VTEC racers will realize how unfair the present rating system is.

Please tell me how to get to 125 hp/liter in a honda legally and I will be glad to oblige in retracting these comments.

I hear what you are saying Bob, but how would YOU suggest on setting up a fair and equitable system that was repeatable for EVERY car??

You're very willing to say the system is broken but offer no alternatives.

Yes, the VTECs are going to have a little more problem getting off the corners that the V8s....... But also seen Greg and Jeremy's car, with almost a stock engine, when the VTEC kicks in scream by cars on the straight like they're standing still. Do you thing the Honda's can out brake the Pony cars? How about out corner? Yes and yes, right? Should they get special allowances for that?

[ltblouis]

6 years ago I had an ITS Delsol with B16 DOHC vtec , the engine was built by Sunbelt and dyno sheet showed HP 162 with only 115 torque.

[spnkzss]

Camaro (5.8 liter) -- 33.3 hp/liter

I didn't know Chevy made a 5.8L. They made a 5.7, but I also thought that most of the proposed ITR cars were 5.0L 305ci. Doesn't really matter cause the 5.7s of that vintage weren't all that either.