Proposed Change to IT Purpose and Intent

[mtownneon]

Personally I haven't found IT to be broken. It is still an affordable way to go road racing. It allows competitors enough room to find combinations that fit their wants and budget constraints while still allowing them be competitive.

The Production classes went down the road David is proposing and look where they are now?

And I have a real problem with this statement:

[They maybe used streetcars, but they are being constructed with all of the precision and safety of a car that would normally built for a professional series,

What's wrong with that? Particularly from a safety perspective, I want to see cars that are as well built as possible. Containing costs in safety is a very wrong headed thing.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Sure IT was cheap (for racing anyway) 15 or 20 years ago, but that's just because very few were trying anywhere near as hard as they are today. The same is true for spec miata, just on a shorter timescale.

Quoted to make sure we didn't miss it. 100% true.

...and the only way you can make a small fortune in racing, is if you start with a big one.

If a $100K Wombat fit into ITA, it would get classed. If a $1K Stinger fit into ITR, it would get classed. As long as it doesn't upset the balance of the class, it is a matter of personal preference.

As far as what wouldn't get classed - anything outside the performance parameters of ITR. A recent example would be the 350Z. At 270hp, it would be a 3800lb car. Doesn't make sense.

I too appreciate the 10,000 foot vision and effort David has made here, but its important to understand why some people spend money on their cars. Most of our clients require us to do restoration-quality builds for them. Bare chassis on a rotisserie, fresh paint inside and out, new parts all throughout like trannys and crate engines, high end data acq, $1K head-restraing seats, top-of-the-line cages...these cares aren't neccessarily FASTER, they are just very pretty, very reliable and a known quantity. It really doesn't take all that much to spend $40k on a spec Miata at this desired build level - when you pay someone else to do it. I often think people don't quite get the numbers when they think, "oh, I built my Wombat for $12K and he spent $45K on his, there is no way I can win". Again, you have to understand what the big money is going to at the prep shops...it's a lot of labor money for new EVERYTHING, paint and body and some high end safety and data gear.

Add to this kind of build the dedication to data and test days (anyone can have this and it is NOT managable in the ITCS - and probably is the single biggest reason fast guys are fast) and you have some VERY fast and reliable cars that lead to the perception that you have to spend a gazillion dollars to win. It just takes a moment to understand why something DOES costs something, not why it SHOULDN'T.

[lateapex911]

All excellent points, Andy-

I guy I knew built his first car, an ITS RX-7. He decided to sell. He ran fast in it, but never won in the NE. He asked a pretty astronomical amount for a car that, to my eye, lacked "pedigree". It didn't have a string of wins, his "track records" were set in test days on his own lapt timer, etc.

He justified his price by saying: "That's a $75K car!"...because he figured that's how much money he put into it. Sure, put 4 different damper sets, a dozen spring sets, multiple sway bar solutions, one header after another, and you can find lots of ways to spend money...

...but that can be done on a $50 tub.

We (the ITAC) got a letter from a competitor who was upset with the fact that we had added weight to his car in the great reorg. "You just made my freshly rebuilt by God's own Motorsports Company to the tune of $32K car worth a quarter of that". (I sent him a check immediately, but weirdly he never cashed it, car has gone on to win some big races)......well, sure, if you pay God A couple hundred an hour to lick the undercoating off, it's gonna cost more...

Contrast that to another friend, who took his street Rabbit, parked it in his unheated dirt floor 1 bay doorless garage, and over a cold Connecticut winter, stripped, caged, and built a ITC car that won more races than you could shake a stick at....in ITC fields that back then were in the 15 -20 car counts..

There are lots of paths to winning, but, skill, brains, testing, and perserverience are all major parts of the equation, and the cost of the donor car has little to do with any of them.

[tom91ita]

would hollow titanium bolts fall into the realm of what should not be allowed due to costs?

http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInf...ductid=12.55FH

fasteners are "free" but perhaps they are banned due to performing an alternate function.

[Jeremy Billiel]

would hollow titanium bolts fall into the realm of what should not be allowed due to costs?

http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInf...ductid=12.55FH

fasteners are "free" but perhaps they are banned due to performing an alternate function.

It's a fastener. It doesn't appear like its performing any additional function to me!

[lawtonglenn]

Wow!

Think how much weight we could save if we used
hollow titanium bolts all around!!!!!

Also, I figured out how to take out 40 lbs...just
deflate each tire by 10 lbs !!!!

[JeffYoung]

Yup, great point. It takes a while to understand how much effort goes in a top prep ITS car (and I am still not there yet). I remember running around my first year in 04 thinking damn, all these guys are beating me with money. Uh, no. Steve Eckerich and Kent and the Parrishes and the VSteenburgs were beating me with work. Work costs money.

You learn that, a whole lot of the complaints about $50k IT cars and $30k SMs goes away.

Quoted to make sure we didn't miss it. 100% true.

...and the only way you can make a small fortune in racing, is if you start with a big one.

If a $100K Wombat fit into ITA, it would get classed. If a $1K Stinger fit into ITR, it would get classed. As long as it doesn't upset the balance of the class, it is a matter of personal preference.

As far as what wouldn't get classed - anything outside the performance parameters of ITR. A recent example would be the 350Z. At 270hp, it would be a 3800lb car. Doesn't make sense.

I too appreciate the 10,000 foot vision and effort David has made here, but its important to understand why some people spend money on their cars. Most of our clients require us to do restoration-quality builds for them. Bare chassis on a rotisserie, fresh paint inside and out, new parts all throughout like trannys and crate engines, high end data acq, $1K head-restraing seats, top-of-the-line cages...these cares aren't neccessarily FASTER, they are just very pretty, very reliable and a known quantity. It really doesn't take all that much to spend $40k on a spec Miata at this desired build level - when you pay someone else to do it. I often think people don't quite get the numbers when they think, "oh, I built my Wombat for $12K and he spent $45K on his, there is no way I can win". Again, you have to understand what the big money is going to at the prep shops...it's a lot of labor money for new EVERYTHING, paint and body and some high end safety and data gear.

Add to this kind of build the dedication to data and test days (anyone can have this and it is NOT managable in the ITCS - and probably is the single biggest reason fast guys are fast) and you have some VERY fast and reliable cars that lead to the perception that you have to spend a gazillion dollars to win. It just takes a moment to understand why something DOES costs something, not why it SHOULDN'T.

[lateapex911]

You know what would be cool?? The Magnum PI Ferrari in IT! I wonder what class that would fit into...hmmmm...

OK, on edit, the 80 - 82 seem like good candidates, as they are pre 4 valve. With a 25% power factor, and 50 for mid engine and 50 for brakes (just for giggles) they would be 3110 lb ITR cars. Schweeeeeet!

[JeffYoung]

R car, run the numbers. 308s never made more than 240 hp I think, and they don't make much torque. Car fits.........S2 Esprit probably does too (160 hp but light), and maybe the Maserati Merak with the 200 hp V6.

On Edit:

308 GTS/B -- 240 hp (carbed)
308 GTSi (2 valve) - 215 (Bosch K-Jetronic, is that mechanical?)
308 GTSi (4 valve) -245 hp.

[Knestis]

Dayum - youse guys are messed UP.

K

[lateapex911]

That's why I chose the injected version (mechanical)...it fits better.

I'd LOVE to see one running against a Mustang, LOL.

[JeffYoung]

I just think Kirk is too damn snobby to see his World Challenge level prep ITB Golf on track with some ratty, smoking, on fire Eye-talian psuedo "supercar!"

[jrvisual]

What about the Dino 246 GT: 175 HP?

Saw one of those on ebay about 8 months ago that had a engine bay fire. Sold for under 5K i believe.

[Ron Earp]

R car, run the numbers. 308s never made more than 240 hp I think, and they don't make much torque. Car fits.........S2 Esprit probably does too (160 hp but light), and maybe the Maserati Merak with the 200 hp V6.

On Edit:

308 GTS/B -- 240 hp (carbed)
308 GTSi (2 valve) - 215 (Bosch K-Jetronic, is that mechanical?)
308 GTSi (4 valve) -245 hp.

Just because the car fits doesn't mean it'll be classed. These things have V8s!!!!! What are you thinking?!?!?!?!

[JeffYoung]

Even I think that is caaaarazeee. Those cars are $100k now? Imagine what parts would cost.

Now a 308, that's rational.

What about the Dino 246 GT: 175 HP?

Saw one of those on ebay about 8 months ago that had a engine bay fire. Sold for under 5K i believe.

[tnord]

new MX5 in ITR at a light weight beating up on early 80's Ferrari's.

sounds freakin awesome. class it!!!

[Xian]

I just think Kirk is too damn snobby to see his World Challenge level prep ITB Golf on track with some ratty, smoking, on fire Eye-talian psuedo "supercar!"

Jeff made teh funnies! Seriously got an LOL out of that one.

Personally, I'd friggin love to see an old school 308 out there in ITR. Honestly that may have just turned into my ITR no-budget "dream car". :sigh:

[GKR_17]

The Elise could be eligible next year...

[GKR_17]

And yes, bring on the 308! Now the Dino, I might just cry if we let someone butcher that into IT specs.

[JoshS]

The Elise could be eligible next year...

It would have to weigh more than its GVW based on the process. It really isn't a good fit, unfortunately.