Life without the VIN rule

[Knestis]

It came up in another thread that several of us are doing builds (or rebuilds) enabled by the VIN rule being rescinded. I know of three that I can think of off the top of my head:

** Jeremy Billiel - Rebuilding whacked Acura GSR from an RS chassis

** Jeff Underwood - ITB Honda from lesser model road donor

** Mike Uhlinger - Building a Honda Prelude VTEC out of an Si

If you are doing - or following - one of these builds, could you keep us updated here, so we can keep track of what the policy change is looking like in real life? I confess that I want to know partially because I badgered the ITAC for a couple of years before it happened so if it goes sideways, I want to know about it...

We've unearthed one unanticipated outcome of the rule change - that it's possible to turn a car that's technically too new to be listed in IT into one that matches a spec line. It doesn't buy any advantage that are not cheating, say by using a part off of a model year NOT included among spec-line-legal options, and we didn't think of it largely (I believe) because it's not actually a negative consequence, but it was a surprise when it came up and sometimes surprises suck.

Thanks!

K

[Ed Funk]

[quote=Knestis;280229] and sometimes surprises suck

---and vice versa!

aside frome the wise ass remarks, we're VINing an ITC '86 Civic into an ITB '86 Civic Si, so far looks like the biggest issue is going to be the wiring harness. Hondas have the engine management harness integrated into the main harness, unlike some German breeds. Probably going to have swap the entire harness from the donor car.

[Rabbit07]

I like the rule for those of us crazy enough to build ITA Neons. This allows us to more easily switch between DOHC and SOHC variety. There were two door SOHC's built, but are very rare. It is much easier to find a two door DOHC and covert. That is if you wanted to?

[robits325is]

Is it legal to toggle back and forth from class to class with the same car? I might consider running my ITS E-46 323i in ITR as a 328i. The horsepower difference isn't much and the other differences arnt signifigant between the models - same brakes and same wheel size.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Is it legal to toggle back and forth from class to class with the same car? I might consider running my ITS E-46 323i in ITR as a 328i. The horsepower difference isn't much and the other differences arnt signifigant between the models - same brakes and same wheel size.

Not legal Rob - it's just not the car on the list. Kinda like me running my ITA car in ITS...it shouldn't win, but it would beat some guys.

Your ITS car running in ITR is a lesser version of what you would have if you did a 328 motor with more power than you have now and ran it at your 3000lbs ITS weight...100lbs over the 2900lb min weight for the E46 328i/is in ITR.

Technically not legal...but anyone who protested would be doing so in true weenie fashion, not because they thought that you had better equipment.

But then again, why raise the hair on anyones neck in ITR? Unless that's your goal!

[ekim952522000]

I am actually quite happy with how easy it is to convert the prelude. So far the only thing's I have found, after researching all the part numbers is that I have to change are the front rotors and calipers, engine and transmission. all the wiring is even the same which makes it very nice.

[R2 Racing]

I too have been thinking about coverting both of our ITC cars into ITB cars. The "5th gen DX to ITB" change would have to come through though. Then with the 3rd gen, the idea of never having to deal with a carbuerator ever again sounds pretty good.

[Doc Bro]

Not legal Rob - it's just not the car on the list. Kinda like me running my ITA car in ITS...it shouldn't win, but it would beat some guys.

Your ITS car running in ITR is a lesser version of what you would have if you did a 328 motor with more power than you have now and ran it at your 3000lbs ITS weight...100lbs over the 2900lb min weight for the E46 328i/is in ITR.

Technically not legal...but anyone who protested would be doing so in true weenie fashion, not because they thought that you had better equipment.

But then again, why raise the hair on anyones neck in ITR? Unless that's your goal!

AB,

Can you clarify this post for me? I don't know if I understood what you're saying. Forgive me because I haven't checked the GCR to know what is and isn't classed. Is the e46 328 classed in ITR? If so then why can't Rob run both classes? Or were you just speaking from a what's competitive what isn't point of view? Sorry, maybe I'm just extra dense this evening....

R

[JoshS]

AB,

Can you clarify this post for me? I don't know if I understood what you're saying. Forgive me because I haven't checked the GCR to know what is and isn't classed. Is the e46 328 classed in ITR? If so then why can't Rob run both classes? Or were you just speaking from a what's competitive what isn't point of view? Sorry, maybe I'm just extra dense this evening....

R

Rob, the E46 323i is in ITS, the E46 325i, 328i, and 330i are all classed in ITR. If his car isn't listed in ITR, it can't be raced in ITR.

[Z3_GoCar]

Is it legal to toggle back and forth from class to class with the same car? I might consider running my ITS E-46 323i in ITR as a 328i. The horsepower difference isn't much and the other differences arnt signifigant between the models - same brakes and same wheel size.

Rob,

If you swap in an M52tuB28 then it's perfectly legal. If you plan to do this with the 2.5 liter motor that's already there, that's a horse of a different color.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Rob, the E46 323i is in ITS, the E46 325i, 328i, and 330i are all classed in ITR. If his car isn't listed in ITR, it can't be raced in ITR.

Correct. Just like I can't race my car in ITS or ITR.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Rob,

If you swap in an M52tuB28 then it's perfectly legal. If you plan to do this with the 2.5 liter motor that's already there, that's a horse of a different color.

Tough to 'toggle' when you have to swap motors...

[Z3_GoCar]

Tough to 'toggle' when you have to swap motors...

Not for the Circle track boys, all we need is a 2x4 and a come-along, oh and a tree Maybe a spare wrecker.

[Doc Bro]

Rob, the E46 323i is in ITS, the E46 325i, 328i, and 330i are all classed in ITR. If his car isn't listed in ITR, it can't be raced in ITR.

See this is what I don't understand. If Rob has an e46 chassis and we don't have a VIN rule why can't he toggle between classes? If he wants to swap engines to do so... then so be it. Isn't his "car" meaning chassis classed in ITR? As long as he's running an engine that came in an e46 what's the issue?

R

[Jeremy Billiel]

It came up in another thread that several of us are doing builds (or rebuilds) enabled by the VIN rule being rescinded. I know of three that I can think of off the top of my head:

** Jeremy Billiel - Rebuilding whacked Acura GSR from an RS chassis

** Jeff Underwood - ITB Honda from lesser model road donor

** Mike Uhlinger - Building a Honda Prelude VTEC out of an Si

If you are doing - or following - one of these builds, could you keep us updated here, so we can keep track of what the policy change is looking like in real life? I confess that I want to know partially because I badgered the ITAC for a couple of years before it happened so if it goes sideways, I want to know about it...

We've unearthed one unanticipated outcome of the rule change - that it's possible to turn a car that's technically too new to be listed in IT into one that matches a spec line. It doesn't buy any advantage that are not cheating, say by using a part off of a model year NOT included among spec-line-legal options, and we didn't think of it largely (I believe) because it's not actually a negative consequence, but it was a surprise when it came up and sometimes surprises suck.

Thanks!

K

Not too much to report here... The RS chassis has been stripped and the cage is just about done. I am also working on a new section of the Kakashi web page to keep those interested in the loop. The car should be ready by the spring.

[Chip42]

our in-process ITA Civic EX (1996-2000) is a 2000 civic Si by VIN. wire harness is as easy swap, chassis is the same, lots of suspension parts are not, brakes are same front, drums on the rear, some hydro parts changes, etc... oh yeah, and the engine is a weeeee bit different . all in all not too bad, given the availability of parts and resources.

[Knestis]

>> See this is what I don't understand. If Rob has an e46 chassis and we don't have a VIN rule why can't he toggle between classes? If he wants to swap engines to do so... then so be it. Isn't his "car" meaning chassis classed in ITR? As long as he's running an engine that came in an e46 what's the issue?

If every part of the resulting car as it should be for a BMW year/model on the ITR spec line, it could be "toggled." If it's just swapping in a different engine to build exactly what should be there, that's enough. If it takes more pieces, then it takes more pieces...

On the other hand, if even one piece of the unibody is different and you leave it, you're not legal.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

See this is what I don't understand. If Rob has an e46 chassis and we don't have a VIN rule why can't he toggle between classes? If he wants to swap engines to do so... then so be it. Isn't his "car" meaning chassis classed in ITR? As long as he's running an engine that came in an e46 what's the issue?

R

Our disconnect is what he means by 'toggle'. To me it means running both classes at one event, not swapping motors back and forth to run two classes...that would be a lot of work...

[RexRacer19]

** Jeff Underwood - ITB Honda from lesser model road donor

If you are doing - or following - one of these builds, could you keep us updated here, so we can keep track of what the policy change is looking like in real life? I confess that I want to know partially because I badgered the ITAC for a couple of years before it happened so if it goes sideways, I want to know about it...

I started with a Civic STD and made it into a DX. There is a minimal amount of parts changing that needs to go on here. From a body standpoint, it only required the rear hatch to be changed from a non-wiper model to a wiper model (DX or Si). The engines on the two cars are identical except for two things...the camshaft and the stamping on the block (D15B1 for the STD and D15B2 for the DX). The ECUs are different but easy and cheap to find. The transmission had to be swapped from a 4-speed to a 5-speed. That is pretty much it.

There are quite a few Civic STD cars that are in ITC right now and I know of at least a couple that are considering making the switch to ITB. It is not so easy with many cars, but it gives racers some options to change classes or build a car for the class they want to be in with a tub that they may already have or can get for dirt cheap.

[Doc Bro]

Our disconnect is what he means by 'toggle'. To me it means running both classes at one event, not swapping motors back and forth to run two classes...that would be a lot of work...

Gottcha...you were talking logistically, I was talking legality. I've seen Rob's crew in action. I think they can do it!!

R