So about these Pony Cars for ITR...

[Ron Earp]

Read the proposal James. Those versions are specifically disallowed. To use parts from them would be ILLEGAL - just like putting a non-stock cam in your car or other such nonsense.

Parts from those models are excluded and besides they, they are different versions of the car. Your argument is the same as saying you can use the stuff from the M version of your car - you cannot, that is illegal.

[lateapex911]

I would like to add a perspective that has not been addressed. Size and weight. Out here in Midiv, all I.T. run in one group. I do not like being on the track in my slow and light ITB with fast and heavy ITE Vipers and Corvettes and Mustangs. When I ran circle track, all the cars in the group were of similar weight. There was a reason for this. I know that we are not supposed to make contact with each other, but s**t happens. Incidental contact between two 3200 lb cars would have no result, but between a 3200 lb and a 1900 lb and the little car is going to the weeds. It only gets worse as the accident does. If I had a say in anything (which I don't) I would vote against putting V8 pony cars in IT.

See? That's not the issue. If that were the responsibilty of the Ad hocs, are you suggesting that we class NO cars above a certai weight, because some Region might group them in a away that could have didimilar weights on course at the same time???

No. Contact your region, and tell them to stop the practice. Probably best if you attend a few comp board meetings.

[BruceG]

I was keeping my fingers crossed waiting for the 2009 GCR, but no such luck...

What is the status of the "Pony Car" Proposal? When can we expect somesort of news? Is there anything we can do to help it along? Anyone else out there waiting for this? any other random thoughts?


thanks!!

Chris...my 2009 GCR came in today's(Sat)mail.

Bruce

[lateapex911]

I think you're picture of these cars is colored by the cheap base models that run tuned barrel induction. How do you account for the lb9/1LE made from 88-92, It had an aluminum driveshaft, 12.86" front rotors with twin piston calipers. 12.86" (326mm) is bigger than the 330i! And what other car in ITR gets an optional aluminum driveshaft?

This is only topped by the equiptment on the 93 Cobra-R, with 13" (330mm) front rotors with twin piston calipers. Better than that a motor with C-R parts on it will put out 260hp with only an ECU tune. It's got special heads, a special camshaft with higher ratio rockers, and 26lb/hr injectors. All of this is legal on the GT beause the Cobra-R is a sub-model. The real horror is that updating/backdating will result in even more power option, like removing the MAF to opperate in Speed-Density mode. Both the f-bodies and Fox-bodies came with Speed-Density injection at some point.

As for the 928, the only version you should be classing would be the 79-82 4.5 liter making 229hp. I doubt there'll be more than one or two of those run, the numbers are just not there to support a big number for development to the level that the Pony cars already have.

James, forgive me if I come across as harsh, but you're a sharp guy....but you've not bothered to read the proposal have you!!?!?!?

WHERE does it say ANYthing about Cobra Rs?!?!

Please, go read the list of cars included. And read the lines at face value. a XXYZ is NOT the same thing as an XXYZ with the 45F option package.

if after reading that list, you know of parts that were stnadard on those cars than can be up/backdated, PLEASE detail exactly what the combination is, and send it to us. But....if you're including Cobra R stuff and the like, then it's a non issue.

[lateapex911]

The craptastic brakes and suspensions that everyone keeps speaking of are yes inferior to what elese is in the class, but keep in mind that when comparing the pony cars to everything else the driving style and technique is way different. In an ITR s2000, Type R or Prelude, these cars are going to be a smooth momentum style where the BMW's for example fall somewhere in between.

So, you're saying that the parts are inferior, yet Superman can drive around them? A car that doesn't stop is, forgive me, a car that doesn't stop! Put Superman in ALL the cars if you have to think that way.

There are already places for these cars to play so why do we need to make another.

Ok....lets try this another way. Bob wants to race. And he wants to race a car that doesn't need it's entire driveline converted...he wants a reasonable level of mods. And he'd like to scare himself a bit..that's HIS happy place. So, IT is the place that fits the desire mod level, and ITR is the appropriate clas for the speed he seeks. And, yea, he's not a snob, and doesn't "have" to race a Porsche or BMW, he'll race anything...just make it as cheap as possible. He wants competition (Why ELSE would you race????), so doing a half assed build and showing up to race against one or two other guys is lame. What he needs is a cheap fun car that's plentiful in a class like ITR. A car like the Mustang or the F bodys.

so why do we need to make another.

To further this thought...we are not MAKING a place for these cars! The playground ALREADY exists! It's all good...just inviting more kids to play...in a carefully controlled manner, of course.

If I wanted to run on a regional level and run a Pony car, I would run a mild build AS car which in turn would be similar to what an ITR build would be. I know that you can go crazy with motor builds, but if you go mild build with the right year 5.0 and develop the rest of the car, brakes and suspension right you will have a boat load of fun and be winning races.

Against who!?!? Weak class it sounds like....(if a half build can win)

Of course there are not that many AS cars at the usual weekend like maybe 1 or 2 if you are lucky.

Ahhh...

See, that's the thing. The entire point of racing is to test yourself against the best. Running in a class where nobody shows up, well, that kind of sucks, doesn't it? How meaningful is it to beat one guy?

[Z3_GoCar]

Read the proposal James. Those versions are specifically disallowed. To use parts from them would be ILLEGAL - just like putting a non-stock cam in your car or other such nonsense.

Parts from those models are excluded and besides they, they are different versions of the car. Your argument is the same as saying you can use the stuff from the M version of your car - you cannot, that is illegal.

First of all, the M example isn't a good example which I'll explain later.

Secondly, that may work for the Cobra-R, but wont for the 1LE. The Cobra-R is a distinct model, sure you can rule that out. But 1LE is an option code, same as Z28 originally was, and we've got a precidence for allowing options, it's called update/backdate. The only way around this is to not class the LB9 motor, which had the 1LE as an option. Instead I'd recommend either the pre-88 H.O. motor (LB9 215hp TPI) or the 88-92 base motor (LO3 170hp TBI)

Finally, do you know the reason that cam shafts are free in BMW's Prepared class? It's because there's no way to tell if it belongs in the correct model. The M isn't a good example because:

1 ) It's a distinct model, with a motor that's a different size. That said there's also....

2 ) Many parts in the e36 M3 is shared with my motor, for example the throttle body, intake manifold, and head all share the same part number.... So based on that and the fact assemblies are allowed to be swapped, can I perform a top-end swap with a M3 motor?

[Z3_GoCar]

.....
Ahhh...

See, that's the thing. The entire point of racing is to test yourself against the best. Running in a class where nobody shows up, well, that kind of sucks, doesn't it? How meaningful is it to beat one guy?

Sound like all the classes out here except for Special M and SRF.... I imagine that most of the regions are like this.

[Z3_GoCar]

James, forgive me if I come across as harsh, but you're a sharp guy....but you've not bothered to read the proposal have you!!?!?!?

WHERE does it say ANYthing about Cobra Rs?!?!

Please, go read the list of cars included. And read the lines at face value. a XXYZ is NOT the same thing as an XXYZ with the 45F option package.

if after reading that list, you know of parts that were stnadard on those cars than can be up/backdated, PLEASE detail exactly what the combination is, and send it to us. But....if you're including Cobra R stuff and the like, then it's a non issue.

Sorry Jake,

Since it was three posts long my eye's started to glaze over after about half way through:eek: I saw the exceptions just as I was reading Ron's reply, I think the difference was I read it that time from the bottom up.

[lateapex911]

Sound like all the classes out here except for Special M and SRF.... I imagine that most of the regions are like this.

That's too bad. I was out there a couple years watching a race at Sonoma on March 31st, and there were easily 40 ITA cars...mostly double dipped Miatas.

Around here, ITB never fails to have 10, and ITA is better than that. 25 to 30 is the norm. ITS is similar. C is weak...2-5. And R has similar to C counts.

[Andy Bettencourt]

The original proposal excluded the 1LE. The Cobra is not on the proposal either.

[Ron Earp]

James, have a look at the entire proposal with the graphs and all, I think it'll make more sense. What Jeff has posted is simply the text with no graphs or table formatting.

http://www.gt40s.com/images/Z/ITR%20...-16-071web.doc

Those options and car variations you speak of are specifically disallowed.

[Knestis]

It definitely shouldn't be ignored, it should be eradicated. If an ITAC member can't divorce themselves from their subjective opinions on a topic I would hope they would have the ability to admit that and step out of the discussion. ...

Everyone - including ITAC members - are allowed to have their opinions about what's right (so not right) for the category, Ron. We all base our specific suggestions about "how it should be" based on bigger principles or values. Some people think that ITR is "supposed to look" a particular way. I don't agree and will argue it but MY position is based on a set of principles that others might not share, too.

That's part of the reason that changes take time in this organization. We start out disagreeing about some piddly little rule, beat it to death, discover that we have some fundamental disagreement, then work to find common ground - then we move back to resolve the piddly rule based on a new consensus.

There's posts here that are CLEARLY rooted in a local perspective, based on experience, that a half-prepared AS car can win races. We see arguments from drivers all over the nation based on that - and other - points of view. We have to make our decisions based on certain assumptions that might be inconsistent with those experiences (e.g., some entrant being willing to spend $50K to win IT races), and yes - our own subjective opinions have to play into that.

We can't "eradicate" those views. We can educate or legislate around them, maybe.

K

[Z3_GoCar]

Because it would be the car to have in ITR here in So-Pac, I looked up a 87-92 camero manual transmission, v8 on autotrader. According to Edmunds they should be priced between $1200 and $2500. Well the results were 16 cars across the whole country, two were convertibles, and one of the coupes was a 5.7, with 11 being priced above $3000, and the most expensive was $9k!! I guess I underestimated how many came with automatic transmission, and how many ended up in the salvage yard because a teen driver wrapped it around a tree. Even as dominate as these cars would be here on our wide open tracks, I doubt I'll ever see one because they are either being saved for a future BJ auction, of are clapped out junk suitable for a destruction derby.

[JoshS]

I think people would build put a new drivetrain into a car that was originally an automatic, if manual transmission cars are that hard to find.

[ekim952522000]

.........Some people think that ITR is "supposed to look" a particular way........

But Mustangs and Camaro's are already classed in ITR? so it will "look" the same. Right?

[Ron Earp]

Kirk,

I think you are right. The scientist in me wants to reduce the decision making process down to a decision tree or an equation. And I know that can't ever happen. However, I do hold out hope that if an ITAC member is expressing an opinion that s/he knows is not based in fact, or is based on the wrong facts, and can be proven to be such, then that member would be willing to step away from the decision making process.

James,

Why do you think a Camaro be the car to have in SoPac? The cars are relatively common and while you might only turn up eleven now you can always obtain one. And, they are inexpensive compared to some other desirable ITR iron such as the 944 S2 (owned one up until last year), the 968, and a hard top 300zx (Jeff has one now), or a Supra (be an aweome ITR car but far more rare than the rarest Mustang or Camaro). The Ford Mustang is quite accessible and essentially the same car - do a search for 94-95 Mustang GT 5 speeds. If you get less than 50 available I'd be suprised.

There aren'tt any 1/2 prepared AS cars winning races in the Southeast, that much I know. Or 1/2 prepared IT cars. The NE and SE are tough areas to go winning in without bringing serious preparation.

[Z3_GoCar]

James,

Why do you think a Camaro be the car to have in SoPac? The cars are relatively common and while you might only turn up eleven now you can always obtain one. And, they are inexpensive compared to some other desirable ITR iron such as the 944 S2 (owned one up until last year), the 968, and a hard top 300zx (Jeff has one now), or a Supra (be an aweome ITR car but far more rare than the rarest Mustang or Camaro). The Ford Mustang is quite accessible and essentially the same car - do a search for 94-95 Mustang GT 5 speeds. If you get less than 50 available I'd be suprised.....

We've got three track here, one's a Roval, one's one of the oldest in the US since 1953, and one is owned by the club and has multiple configurations. The Roval is obviously biased to a high hp car that can be wide for about a third of a lap in the infield.

http://www.autoclubspeedway.com/seat...ps/track_maps/

The historic track has only one tricky and historically deadly corner. Other than that it's pretty wide open and suitable to a car with top speed, and not very hard on brakes either as all but one brake zone is up hill.

http://www.willowspringsraceway.com/...adCourseLg.htm

The final track is where most of our regional races are held. It's a multi-configuration track. Of all the configurations only one would place a pony car at a disadvantage. This is the same track where I rolled at, and in that configuration a camero would be a class killer, with the 1/4 mile straight leading to a slightly banked turn to a second 1/4 mile straight. These cars would walk anything else in ITR on that configuration.

Now if we had a Laguna Seca or Infineon, that would be a different story. But we don't.

[JeffYoung]

Don't see anything there much different from Daytona, Lowe's, Road Atlanta, Roebling, CMP or VIR.

[Knestis]

The Golf sucks in medium-to-low speed corners of 180* or more, but it climbs hills like a tank and loves fast corners. Do we give it a weight break for Mid Ohio or a lead trophy for VIR...?

Point being, we class and spec cars based on their mechanical attributes, to put them in performance "buckets" that are theoretically in the same ballpark, called a "class." Every class will have cars that are better in some places (corners, tracks, or even regions because of how tracks might be), and worse in others.

The next argument, extending logically from here, is the 'they race differently' issue. "They drive past on the straight, then I have to fight to pass them in the corners." Same answer there: It's how things are - and have always been - in multi-marque racing.

K

[CRallo]

Hey guys, LOVE the discussion!! Many of you have brought up good points and everyone is being kept honest so to speak... its good to see so much input.

i am however disappointed that someone would harbor predjudices such as those being refered to regarding the addition of these cars to ITR. I could just as easily say "Get your Jap Crap and German Junk off our beloved American racetracks!!" but i don't. Thats not why we do what we do... An attitude like that needs to go back to PCA or where ever it came from!

Many of you are scared that these cars could dominate... As much as it kills me to admit it, I think it could be a good fit. The only thing I'm scared of is being classed too heavy b/c of the apparent paranoia. I own one of these cars, i know what it takes to make them fast and you can't do any of it with in the IT ruleset.

So it makes some torque... all that wins is the start and short drag races off corners... these cars lose power over about 5k rpm and will get runover. It doesn't take long for the Honda's and Rx7's to catch the Nissans and BMW's does it?

I have dreamed of these cars since I was seven years old. I worked my ass off and bought a Z28 for my first car when i was almost 17 and still have it today. Don't ask me why I'm not a statistic, I don't have an answer for you lol I want to race one of these. I want to be able to win, not just drive laps or I would do track days. I do not have the budget for AS or IT"X" so what am I to do??

In a time of shrinking race budgets, why not invite people to play where it costs less? It just makes sense...