So about these Pony Cars for ITR...

[jjjanos]

It is not about whether it is German or American. I feel that the V8 cars already have a place to play so why change things.

I feel very strongly about the above statement. All of the V8 pony cars have a place to run currently in AS or SS or IT as far as on a regional level. Why are they even being considered for ITR. I believe that it will just disturb the class structure.

There we have an arguement against the very existence of IT....

Do all of our cars have a place to play in Prod or GT? Yes.
Has the existence of IT disturbed car counts in Prod and GT? I would say yes.

Clearly it is time that the ITAC correct this long-standing error and advocate that IT be abolished and the cars returned to the ranks of Prod And GT.

Of course, our cars as they sit will be uncompetitive but...

If I wanted to run on a regional level and run a Pony car, I would run a mild build AS car which in turn would be similar to what an ITR build would be.

Just run regionals!

Frankly, if I were an AS driver, I would be very worried about American V8s in IT. It's the first step in the withering of AS.

[benspeed]

I think the V8 cars really should be classed in ITR. This is what makes IT such a great class - we do have a solid process to class cars. I think the small 8 cylinder motors should race in R but they will be heavy.

"Frankly, if I were an AS driver, I would be very worried about American V8s in IT. It's the first step in the withering of AS."

That's a great observation and I fully agree. V8 drivers will flock to IT because of the same reasons we do - great rules to keep costs under control.

I don't recall who said it earlier but, "trust the process." I think there's a great perspective on car potential built into our classing process.

[lateapex911]

But Mustangs and Camaro's are already classed in ITR? so it will "look" the same. Right?

LOL, ironic, isn't it!?

Here's the basic transcript I had with a guy about this.

Him: "I don't like the idea at all. They just aren't right for the class"
Me: "What do you mean by "aren't right"??
- "ITR is supposed to be high end foreign cars"
-"ITR is supposed to be faster than ITS. Nowhere is it written that it's only for high end foreign cars!"
- "Well, if these cars get in, all we're going to have is a bunch of these and a couple other cars,"
- Tough problem to have! I think having cars classed that people actually want to run is a good thing~!
-"Well, it won't look right to have big American cars out there with the others"
"We have that NOW! There are V6 versions of these cars already classed"
-"Yea, but they don't matter"


......and so it went.

My head assploded.

Of course, that's my opinion, and his opinion. I think mine is grounded in logic, but hey, I've been wrong before.

There have been threads on this before, and the comments have been enlightening, to say the least. One fellow objected because he didn't want to share the track with Pony car drivers in his nice Snooty Motor Corp Perfectomobile. He felt that as a group they would obviously be inferior drivers, and have no regard for his car, because they were driving badly in their craptastic buckets.....

[Knestis]

But wait - that's not ALL...!! For a limited time we can also offer you...

"It's not fair that someone could build a competitive ITR Mustang for so much less than I have invested in my [whatever]."

"Body parts are so cheap, Camaro drivers won't care about crashing into my [whatever]."

"Even if they're running the same lap times, I'll have to pass them every lap, then they'll pass me, etc."

"It's going to be DANGEROUS for me to try to pass them in the corners."

"Performance parts are so cheap that there won't be anything keeping them from cheating."

Now how much would you pay for this amazing offer...???




None of these objections are new news. In fact, my little list came from discussions on this board when the idea was still new. (I tried digging it out but "ITR" is too short to use for a search.) And the really interesting dynamic is when someone is willing to argue one specious position to hide another, even more selfish motivation...

K

[cjb25hs]

Well, to be honest if I were going to compete in ITR with a Pony Car even if the V-8 cars are classed, I would build a 96-02 V6 Camaro. I had a '97 that I ran in SOLOII. It was a very competitive G Stock car. You could order it with the performance option, don't remember the code, but it gave you the 3.42 rear end and limited slip out of the Z28 and the Z28 4 wheel disc brakes. Essentially if you ordered that car with that option it was a Z28 with a 200HP V6 that had almost 50/50 weight distribution. The front of the block was behind the centerline of the front axle.

With an IT build expect about 250HP and 260 to 280TQ and at 2815lbs should be a good car.

Now of course if I wanted to run ITR and be at the front I would build a different car. What that would it be, well that would depend on what part of the country and what type of tracks I would run on.

[lateapex911]

But wait - that's not ALL...!! For a limited time we can also offer you...

"It's not fair that someone could build a competitive ITR Mustang for so much less than I have invested in my [whatever]."

The Economic card!!!

"Body parts are so cheap, Camaro drivers won't care about crashing into my [whatever]."

The Low Life Scum Card!

"Even if they're running the same lap times, I'll have to pass them every lap, then they'll pass me, etc."

The Bizzaro Anti Racing Card! (Straight out of Bizzaroland!)

"It's going to be DANGEROUS for me to try to pass them in the corners."

The Safety Card!! (My personal favorite, as it's always used to cloak the objectors true issue)

"Performance parts are so cheap that there won't be anything keeping them from cheating."

The Cheating Card! (My second favorite, as it always humors me that the objector has somehow failed to realize that EVERY car can be illegal!)

Now how much would you pay for this amazing offer...???

But wait, isn't there more??

........And the really interesting dynamic is when someone is willing to argue one specious position to hide another, even more selfish motivation...

K

Yup, that's the Double the Fun Card! The objector has stooped to even lower levels to hide his true objection, because of personal fears/benefits, then tries convince us of his higher morals. You need deep boots for that one, but they ARE easy to smack out of the park..

OK, sorry, having a bit too much fun here. Not trying to step on anyone's toes.....

[Jim]

Jake,

I think you left one out ...

Some people are anti-mullet. They say things about not wanting V8's in ITR, just to mask their true feelings about mullets.

Plus don't even get me started about Member's Only jackets. I wonder if I can get a Member's Only racing suit to go with my Camaro. That would be too cool.

Plus I am not even sure why folks are so spun up about V8's in ITR. Everybody knows V8's get classed in ITS. Jeff has that TR8 V8 deal over in ITS.

Jim

[JeffYoung]

I proposed the cration of ITM -- IT Mullett -- over on the brown board. They are all into classing Honda Fits and stuff over there, so they ignored me.

Jim, I could break out the tan Members Only with epulets, and put a cage in my 72 Charger and go racing.

What Bitchin' Maro do you have? Is it, perchance, a "Berlinetta"?

[Marcus Miller]

If its not a honda...


Marcus <-- closest mullet enthusiast, with a 68 Mootang in the garage.

[Jim]

Jeff,

I am between F-Body cars at present. I had a '68 Camaro and a '75 Trans Am (with ThunderChicken on hood). This little gem has caught my eye:
http://baltimore.craigslist.org/cto/971190419.html

I do think (and I sent a note to the CRB some time ago) the Pony Cars in ITR plan does make sense - trust the process and give the members more choices.

[Ron Earp]

People get worked up over fear.

GRM has and intersting "Best of 2008" article in the latest issue. In one section they take cars from the best classes and drive them on the Streets of Willow for comparison times. Naturally the test is not a scientific comparison but the results were somewhat interesting:

Spec Miata, 116 whp, 110 wtq, 1:04.231 laptime, 2350 lbs
SRF, 113 hp (flywheel I assume, 124 tq, 1:00.116, 1670 lbs
CMC (Camaro Mustang Challenge), 230 whp, 290 wtq, 1:01.407 laptime, weight 3150lbs, 1995 Mustang GT
Factory Five Challenge, 225 hp (flywheel), 300 tq (flywheel), 59.679 laptime, weight 2450lbs

The later two are powered by Ford 5L V8s. The CMC car is sporting an illegal for IT "Cobra Intake" to get around problems with the stock factory piece. In IT you'd have to use that shortened and flattened restrictive piece. The FFC car is over 600 lbs lighter than what we've speced for Pony cars in ITR.

[quadzjr]

With an IT build expect about 250HP and 260 to 280TQ and at 2815lbs should be a good car.

That is some decent gains. Are you refering to a full level IT build or just headers, intake, chip, etc..?

[JeffYoung]

I have a technical question.

Can I tuck my mullett into my driving suit, or do I need a mulletclava?

[JeffYoung]

I liked those mid 70s TransAms myself, especially (of course) the 73 and 74 Super Duties. That scene in American Beauty where Lester's wife comes home to find one in the driveway is classic........

That 89 should make a good ARRRRRGGGGH car........break out the mulletclava!

Jeff,

I am between F-Body cars at present. I had a '68 Camaro and a '75 Trans Am (with ThunderChicken on hood). This little gem has caught my eye:
http://baltimore.craigslist.org/cto/971190419.html

I do think (and I sent a note to the CRB some time ago) the Pony Cars in ITR plan does make sense - trust the process and give the members more choices.

[lateapex911]

Dollar for dollar, a mid 70s Trans Am was a pretty fast car.

[erlrich]

That is some decent gains. Are you refering to a full level IT build or just headers, intake, chip, etc..?

For the six banger it's going to take a full tilt IT build to get 250 hp. With bolt-ons & tuning you could probably get close to 230-235, but not 250. Also, if someone can legally get a 4th gen car down to 2815 with a 180 lb driver I'll be shocked. I think even getting one much under 3000 will take a lot of work.

And I love all the AS comparisons; the fact that fully prepped AS cars are only running a second or two faster than the top ITR cars is one of the reasons I'm re-thinking my idea of building my '02 Camaro into an ITR car (which is why I bought it to start with). I'm still planning to get it on track just to see if it has any potential whatsoever, but I'm not optimistic.

Jeff - I think as long as you can find a nomex dew rag (preferably with a confederate flag on it) to tuck the hair into you'll be just fine

[GKR_17]

Not exactly a pony car, but what about the C3 vettes? I see quite a few with under 200 hp stock.

[JeffYoung]

Now this is a good point. Late 70s/early 80s Vettes had what, 170-180 hp stock? They were the performance of equivalent of a TR8 at the time, if that tells you something.....

Would be a decent R car I think. Torque, decent brakes, decent suspension (or at least correctable).

[lateapex911]

Fine with me! Run them with the 308s. 80's rednecks vs 80's poseurs!

[tnord]

think of the potential ITR grid in 5 years or so when ITR gets going after the economy recovers...

old school american iron C3 Vettes next to fancy-pants 308 ferrari next to euro touring car BMWs next to modern high tech japanese 4cyl Honda's alongside the newest rotary RX8 ahead of redneck pony cars with a few NA versions of 90's japanese supercars.

seriously cool.