Proposed 2009 MARRS

[jjjanos]

Interesting you call me a peanut.

A peanut gallery is an audience that heckles the performer.

It will likely get implimented since I hear more of the drivers reps like SM, SSM, ITA are all in favor of it.

You listed 3 reps. The vote was 13-4.

I have no problem with the ITB grouping, but I am sure the pointy end might not have as much fun with the handfull of IT7 cars...but it could be a moot point.

The handful of IT7 cars outnumbers most of the classes we have. With the exception of 1 or 2 cars, they also turn lap times faster than ITB. An IT7/SS grid with a second ITB/ITC gets the two groups apart and, for the most part, keeps them apart. If there's no split grid in the supps, there's no point in doing this as it WILL reduce the quality of track time.

I just dont like the qual, race, race format, which jeff says may not happen, but even Gregg's e-mail said radical change in the format.

Exactly what is the problem with having two races? More carnage? That's why finishing position shouldn't be considered for Sunday's grid, but your best lap time - plus it gets those who don't want to race out of the herd.

If we don't condense, we CAN'T change the format. Fewer cars over the same number of groups equals the same schedule as last year. It isn't the number of cars that determines the amount of track time, but the number of groups.

The ONLY reason to condense is to add more track time for each group. We could increase the length of the meaningless Saturday qualifying PM session, but why do that when we can set up a system where those who want to race can and those who don't still get access to the track?

If Sunday grid is set by best time from Saturday, either qualifying or race, then those who don't want to race, just have to start from the pit lane and it'll be nothing more than a qualifying session and it will be longer.

[mlytle]

Exactly what is the problem with having two races? More carnage? That's why finishing position shouldn't be considered for Sunday's grid, but your best lap time - plus it gets those who don't want to race out of the herd.


If Sunday grid is set by best time from Saturday, either qualifying or race, then those who don't want to race, just have to start from the pit lane and it'll be nothing more than a qualifying session and it will be longer.

bingo! this is the way to have a saturday race, without increasing the qualify-during-the-race carnage that caused marrs to stop using the saturday race format years ago. must detach the saturday race results from the qualifying grid for sunday. take the fastest lap time from either sat morn or afternoon session....just like we have done in recent years. this makes the sat race optional. driver not want to risk car? no problem..just stand on morning qual time for sundays grid. want to go our for fun race? have a ball sat afternoon. think you can better your morning time? start from the pits for the afternoon race and enjoy a couple clear laps. break your car in morning qual? not a big deal, you can work on it all day saturday and your morning time will set you for sunday.

if the sat race is forced to be the qual for the sunday race, all flexibility is taken away. wrong answer!

[jjjanos]

bingo! this is the way to have a saturday race, without increasing the qualify-during-the-race carnage that caused marrs to stop using the saturday race format years ago.

This is what I'm suggesting:

Saturday races:
1. No MARRS points awarded for finishing position.
2. If we want a championship, let it be a Saturday Cup and we can make it open to everyone running, i.e. no decal.
3. Combined starts for Saturday since the race is "optional." I'm not firm about that.
4. Best time from Saturday sets grid for Sunday aka the MARRS race. Let's see how it works before trying it in the real race.

Sunday races:
1. Split grids written into the supps for those groups asking for it at the start of the season. This CANNOT be something the stewards can take away at a whim.

Only question is whether MARRS points should be awarded in each class for the following:
1. Fastest Sunday race lap?
2. Fastest Saturday morning time?
3. Fastest Saturday afternoon time?

[Charlie Broring]

Jeff, you keep talking about "split grids" like it's some kind of a solution to an awkward mix of classes. Your dreaming. Stewards will fight it and screw it up if allowed at all. History repeats itself.

[jjjanos]

However, My reason for starting this thread was that I feel that great racing is our best avenue to attract drivers to the MARRS series. I feel that the 8 group schedule is going to compromise the quality of racing for quite a few classes and cost us drivers. I don't think an extra couple laps on Sunday is going to attract a single new driver. I think Saturday afternoon racing can take place with a more comfortable 9 group format. This is certainly not the self serving motive that you imply

I think we made a mistake with our plans for next year and if others feel the same we have time to reconsider.

Then put together an alternate. Simply saying 8=bad, 9=good is no good. Tell me what the 9 will be. I've run the numbers for groups and out together schedules and, IMO, 9 is a useless contraction. We might as well stay with 10 or let SRF combine with Prod and give them double the track time.

That doesn't solve the ITR/ITS/ITA cluster though. Where are we going to put them?

Attached are the 2008 car counts with the 2008 groupings. Put together a 9-group format that makes sense. I've got a spreadsheet that will automatically do the totals for proposed groupings. Send me a PM with an email and I'll fire it off to any and all who want it. Now put together a 9-group weekend schedule with the following rules:
1. Add 2 minutes to every session for the cool off lap.
2. Leave 10 minutes between sessions for slack.
3. Leave 65 minutes for lunch.
4. Races = 1.5 minutes/lap plus 4 minutes.

Cutting one group gets us a hair over 5 minutes of racing for the 9 remaining groups on Saturday. On Sunday, we can pick up about 5 minutes of track time for the remaining groups.

Cut two run groups, we pick up 12.5 minutes on Saturday, or about an entire qualifying session. On Sunday, we pick up about 10 minutes/group, or about 1/3 of what we each get now.

Jeff, you keep talking about "split grids" like it's some kind of a solution to an awkward mix of classes. Your dreaming. Stewards will fight it and screw it up if allowed at all. History repeats itself.

If it's in the Supps they have to do it. We don't give them option of granting the split grid.

[erlrich]

Attached are the 2008 car counts with the 2008 groupings. Put together a 9-group format that makes sense. I've got a spreadsheet that will automatically do the totals for proposed groupings. Send me a PM with an email and I'll fire it off to any and all who want it. Now put together a 9-group weekend schedule with the following rules:

Geez, must be an accountant thing...I also put together a spreadsheet that does the same thing...except my car counts are different in quite a few of the classes; you must have counted all entrants? I only counted actual starters.

Anyway, here is a link to that spreadsheet, if anyone would like to play with the numbers. Please save it to your computer before messing with it, as I didn't go to the trouble of locking any of the cells.

[Charlie Broring]

I'm pretty sure ITA racing would have been some of the best racing they had had in years too if they only averaged 19 cars on track instead of the 33 they averaged.

I fully understand the frustration and some of the best ITC racing I had was when we were with ITB, but that is because our numbers were low, accross the board. I think now it's more of a we need to spread the pain out equally. When you do that, you piss people off and make some happier (not happy, happier).

I don't think you get my point. Currently MARRS ITB is enjoying the same thing discussed elsewhere in this Board. There were a lot of different ITB cars that could win any given race. Often half the field were "front runners" If there were 33 or 43 or what eve, and there was the same high ratio of potential winners running together for the win, the racing would only be better still. Currently SM and SSM races are near the ideal in my mind with many cars of similar capability in only one class. This is one of the big attractions of Miata's. The ability of class to race together without being impeded by slow cars in other classes makes for good racing.

Conversely, when there are many classes a race group the the off pace cars in faster classes can really impact on the quality of racing for the slower classes. The 2007 VIR ITA/ITB/ITC/SRX7 and whoever else was the worst example of this. And that was the reason we didn't race at VIR this year. That was really bad racing in the opinion of many a MARRS driver.

My issue is not so much with the number of cars in the groups but rather the number of classes and the way the classes will interact. I sure wouldn't want to run my ITS car along side GT1 as we voted to do next year.

[EV]

If Sunday grid is set by best time from Saturday, either qualifying or race, then those who don't want to race, just have to start from the pit lane and it'll be nothing more than a qualifying session and it will be longer.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but what's the point of a "race" on Saturday, if it's nothing more than a qualifying session started with a pace car?