Make Head and Neck Restraints Mandatory?

[tom91ita]

My (VERY LONG-WINDED) .......

Let me preface this by spelling out my experience with H+N restraints over the past 4 years or so. I bought an ISAAC early on, in '04 as I recall, and have been using it ever since. Since then, I have been in about 6 incidents, all but one of those with the wall. I also have a HANS, as I am required to for work; I work for Bosch Engineering (in Detroit) in the area of Vehicle Dynamics - specifically development and testing of stability control systems. ......

Thanks for your time, your attention on this matter, and your continued efforts on behalf of the Club!

Vaughn,

outstanding note as few have that much experience with both devices.

and upon observation of how many times you have actually "used" the Isaac, i might give you more room on the track next time....

seriously, good note and comparision of your experiences.

tom

[tom_sprecher]

Sprech: Are you suggesting member should be able to race in street clothes, without a helmet and safety belts? I don't understand where H&NR becomes anything more than the next step along those lines.

Is the SCCA mandate for a window net wrong? Is the mandate that the window net must be mounted a specific way a compound on an injustice?

No. I do not have any stats to back up it up but I would have to believe that the odds of having an incident where a helmet, fire suit or seat belts would prevent serious injury versus a H&N system has got to be orders of magnitude greater. Given the short history that has lead to the high cost of HNR systems I feel the cost outweighs the coverage at this point in time.

Each of the items you listed can be had for in the $100 to $300 price range and I have large selection to choose from. Make HNR systems meet those same requirements and I'll buy one. Until then I am strongly opposed to the creatation of a monopoly and being forced to support it.

[924Guy]

...and upon observation of how many times you have actually "used" the Isaac, i might give you more room on the track next time....

LOL!

The ironic thing is in just about every case the impact has been precipitated by my losing control without any help or contact... :eek:

[Dave Burchfield]

After reading this entire thread as well as the entire thread over at Roadrace/Autocross, there seems to be a commonality between them, and that is the people ranting about how we SCCA racers are/whiners/clueless/unconcerned about safety/HANS haters/ISAAC lovers(your choice) are individuals who either are not SCCA racers or have an axe to gring with SCCA. Interesting..........just sayin'

[Knestis]

What professional racing sanctioning bodies allow the ISAAC to be used? ...?

Don't care. Doesn't matter.

If you'd like, I can fill you in on my personal experiences with SFI. My safety is way down the list of their priorities, and they - and their relationships with sanctioning bodies - are driving those decisions.

K

[Cobrar05]

Don't care. Doesn't matter.

If you'd like, I can fill you in on my personal experiences with SFI. My safety is way down the list of their priorities, and they - and their relationships with sanctioning bodies - are driving those decisions.

K

I see. FIA, NASCAR, IRL, ALMS and so on and so on have all shut the door on the best device for political/sales reasons?

I am not an expert on this subject, but I hope you can see where your argument has that grassy knoll tilt to it.

[gsbaker]

What professional racing sanctioning bodies allow the ISAAC to be used?

Globally? Easier to list those that don't:

1. F1
2. NASCAR
3. A smattering of smaller organizations that could be considered Pro.

No organization has ever explicitly excluded an ISAAC system.

[gsbaker]

I see. FIA, NASCAR, IRL, ALMS and so on and so on have all shut the door on the best device for political/sales reasons?

I am not an expert on this subject, but I hope you can see where your argument has that grassy knoll tilt to it.

They made their decisions in 2003, and are not motivated to open that file again. Why bother?

[gsbaker]

...IRL...

is not on the list.

[spdmonkey]

Vaughn,
I am surprised to hear of your discomfort with the HANS. My experiences are the exact opposite. As some people know I've had nearly a dozen shoulder surgeries and for the past few years its been very painful during and after the races from the shoulder harness. The pressure exerted on my shoulder has led to numerous neck aches and on bad bumps (like turns 2-3 @IRP) horrible pain. This past year I bought a HANS and the difference was amazing. For me the belt pressure is now equally distributed and at IRP I had no pain whatsoever despite running at the front of the pack. After races my neck and shoulder felt normal. It was an excellent added bonus. Maybe the issac works for some, but for me the yoke devices are going to be perfect. YMMV.
db

[lateapex911]

Vaughn,
I am surprised to hear of your discomfort with the HANS. My experiences are the exact opposite. As some people know I've had nearly a dozen shoulder surgeries and for the past few years its been very painful during and after the races from the shoulder harness. The pressure exerted on my shoulder has led to numerous neck aches and on bad bumps (like turns 2-3 @IRP) horrible pain. This past year I bought a HANS and the difference was amazing. For me the belt pressure is now equally distributed and at IRP I had no pain whatsoever despite running at the front of the pack. After races my neck and shoulder felt normal. It was an excellent added bonus. Maybe the issac works for some, but for me the yoke devices are going to be perfect. YMMV.
db

That's great, but, let's be clear, the safety aspects of the device are not causing you this new found comfort. You could achieve the exact same result merely by inserting a similar form under the belts to distribute the load.

Others are saying that the safety aspects of the HANS, DO cause discomfort...they have no other option if they are forced to wear the HANS. The architecture of the devise is the cause.

It's great that you've been able to kill two birds with one stone though! I hope you have a proper seat to go with the HANS.

[JimLill]

What I observe is that are three distinct areas to evaluate in HNR selection

1) level of protection while in seat, the sled numbers basically

2) egress in the case of an incident

3) comfort

I didn't include price although some people may consider that.

Constructive comments welcome........

[lateapex911]

What professional racing sanctioning bodies allow the ISAAC to be used?

Sprech: Are you suggesting member should be able to race in street clothes, without a helmet and safety belts? I don't understand where H&NR becomes anything more than the next step along those lines.

Is the SCCA mandate for a window net wrong? Is the mandate that the window net must be mounted a specific way a compound on an injustice?

You must have me on "ignore". Read what I wrote. Maybe that will answer your questions as to the resistance you see. Or maybe I completely mis understand your point.

As to the other clubs and their requirements, wow that's great. The homeowners association in Newport Beach, CA, where lots of rich and professional folk live, requires you to paint your house one of five colors.

Do I think they really know more?

What if the UL, back when the light bulb was first invented, got together with the bulb manufacturers, and agreed to write a spec that required all lighting sources to be able to produce XX lumens of lighting energy, use electricity, and tungsten filaments. There goes the be incentive to innovate and create LEDs, vapor lighting, HID, etc.

To suggest that we "do as the other guys are doing it" is the obvious best path, because others are doing it is to ignore some hard facts, and displays some naivety in the bigger picture, IMO. The possible path THIS new mandate could follow shows signs of being very different than the mandates of the past. If you want to que up, and follow the masses, fine. But that' doesn't break new ground, or win races.

I'm not saying this is black and white, and I do see the different sides, but that means I see alternatives as well.

[JoshS]

I bought an ISAAC early on, in '04 as I recall, and have been using it ever since. Since then, I have been in about 6 incidents, all but one of those with the wall.

Seriously? You've had wrecks 6 times in 5 years?

[924Guy]

Seriously? You've had wrecks 6 times in 5 years?

Yeah, I guess so! Mind you, I do run a rather full season - typically 8 weekends! Particularly challenging, given that I race up north!!!

EDIT - also, 3 races/weekend at nearly all weekends, and 6 are at Waterford Hills - little runoff room for errors - 22 individual races this season! IOW, that's 6 incidents, only one involving another car, in over 100 races. 6% I can live with (and more importantly, so can my wife!)

Another good reason to cut back...

Still, I race with all the best safety gear, in a car that's built like a tank (apparently one of the few capable of taking out a Volvo, not that that's something to be proud of!) and I race hard and at the front...

[Knestis]

I see. FIA, NASCAR, IRL, ALMS and so on and so on have all shut the door on the best device for political/sales reasons?

I am not an expert on this subject, but I hope you can see where your argument has that grassy knoll tilt to it.

No, Rob - I can't. And I'll ignore your implication that I'm a loon, simply because I know you don't know any better.

I said PERSONAL experiences - as in meetings with Arnie K. and SFI "early adopters" of suit specifications, going back some 20 years. I'm not making this shit up, even though I am of course letting what I learned then influence my impressions now.

But believe what you want. You aren't alone in not understanding how SFI works. And you're muddling the entire conversation by putting FIA, NASCAR, IRL, ALMS, et al. all in the same basket. It's way more complex than "everyone" does the same thing.

K

[JimLill]

It's way more complex than "everyone" does the same thing.

eg: I heard that the FIA does not do sled tests of the HNR. The do analysis of the mechanics and physics involved and then do strength tests of the assembly and/or components...

these articles are interesting also..........

https://www.paddocktalk.com/news/htm...rder=0&thold=0

http://www.cams.com.au/content.asp?P...&ObjectID=1103

[ddewhurst]

If this dosen't open the eyes of some nothing will.

SFI spins-off from SEMA
Although a proud beginning, SFI now operates as a foundation independent from SEMA, yet dependent on all segments of the industry it serves, both for funding and participation. SFI maintains its own managerial staff and oversees technical committees. The Foundation is funded by companies which voluntarily participate in the specs program, along with financial support from member sanctioning bodies. As a result of this support, SFI has developed programs for almost eighty different products used by manufacturers, motorsports groups, and consumers worldwide.

[Knestis]

So, DD - what nut-case manifesto did you get that from...?

K

[Cobrar05]

No, Rob - I can't. And I'll ignore your implication that I'm a loon, simply because I know you don't know any better.

I said PERSONAL experiences - as in meetings with Arnie K. and SFI "early adopters" of suit specifications, going back some 20 years. I'm not making this shit up, even though I am of course letting what I learned then influence my impressions now.

But believe what you want. You aren't alone in not understanding how SFI works. And you're muddling the entire conversation by putting FIA, NASCAR, IRL, ALMS, et al. all in the same basket. It's way more complex than "everyone" does the same thing.

K

I am sure its complex. I said I was not an expert. I was not calling you a loon.
I find the H&N thing a nightmare because its not uniform. SCCA guys seem to like the ISAAC. I can't use that when I run a NASA race. I can't use that when I want to run a Mustang Challenge race. I can't use my Hybrid either in those races. I have a modest budget at best. I can't afford a different H&N and helmet package for each sanctioning body I want to race with.