ITB - what a bunch of crap

[Knestis]

Kirk's Super Secret Plan

1. Finagle way onto ITAC

2. Manipulate classifications with exquisite subtlety to make ITB the new hotness

3. Get beat enough to remind himself why he's an "enduro specialist"



K

[RSTPerformance]

OK, just wanted to get your attention.

I had resisted the assertion that ITB was the 'new ITA' - but heck, this class is really redifining itself into something special. Accords, Civic's, CRX's, Volvo's, Golfs, 924's, BMW's, Audi's, Preludes, a freakin' gorgeous Alfa...

Awesome guys. Awesome. Add in Scott, The Canadians, the Blethens, Beren, Boo-hee - and oh-snap is that a showdown.

ITS seems to be the class that is static now...only 12 starters at the ARRC? Diverse yes (top 6 were all different models), but is it quality over quantity? Thoughts?

I have been saying this is the class for years, I am glad you are finally coming to a realization!!! add in the MR2's and you have a list of cars that cover every possible way to build a car, (old FWD and RWD tanks to a mid engine sportscars.

Dont forget other oddballs like the Saab (Yeah, Nat Wentworth is faster in the Volvo but he ran in the front with the Saab), the Opal GT (Track record holder at NHIS?), Alfa Spider (still track holder after 12+ years at Lime Rock Park), or the Omni that used to run top 3 at RA a few years ago.

It is unfortunate that the class is getting so old and parts are hard to find. If you can find them then it is generally a very affordable class. The key for the future will be to make correct classifications and add in some new blood that doesn't dominate quite as easily as the Golf III does. If you add in another car that is just barely faster than the Golf III then the class will be done. All of us old cars are pedling as fast as possible and can barely keep up to challenge.

As for a showdown.... what a dream race!!! I wish that we could afford the time off and the tow. Unfortunatly the fall season always seems to get busy with work (its after "summer vacation season") and as I get older I seem to have less money even though I make considerably more, have less bills and still have not made enough to invest "extra" and loose it all in the stock market.

Raymond "914 should be right up there, Mini... hummmm I would also love to..." Blethen

[RSTPerformance]

PS: Its a bunch of crap that Andy and Greg havn't given it a try...

Raymond

[Andy Bettencourt]

PS: Its a bunch of crap that Andy and Greg havn't given it a try...

Raymond

Given what a try? The ARRC? Guilty on my part...Greg? You know better...

Or ITB? Be careful what you wish for!!!

[RSTPerformance]

Given what a try? The ARRC? Guilty on my part...Greg? You know better...

Or ITB? Be careful what you wish for!!!

About 10 of us are wishing, and we are not even close to afraid.... the two of you would take each other out while you think about how they make those dam Volvo's go so fast!!!

Raymond "on behalf of all ITB'ers... bring it" Blethen

[tnord]

I truly hope to see more cars out next year, during the the year as well as the 09 ARRC.

i think you'll have to wait for 2010 for it to turn around.

[shwah]

Or ITB? Be careful what you wish for!!!

You know that you typed that out loud right?

[924Guy]

Southern California, heart of the mortgage meltdown. I'm even concerned, and haven't been racing while I spend to rebuild.

LOL... welcome to the recession... we've been waiting for you! (Michigan's way ahead of you, been there for YEARS... Ohio too...)

As for the rest on ITB... talk is cheap, lap times aren't...

[gran racing]

What Andy, is the 1.6 getting move to ITB?

[Andy Bettencourt]

ITB is so diverse, it would be cool to build something for sure...for me, it has to be RWD so the 924 and the MR2 would be the most viable. Wishing there was a Mazda-based choice! We would have a driver in there fo-sho!

Hey Ray-Ray, why don't you try ITA?

[gran racing]

There are Mazda based choices. Mazda 323, 626, and the MX-6. I know, not RWD.

[Andy Bettencourt]

RWD is a deal-breaker for me...spent plenty fo time in FWD racecars in the 90's. I do love V's 924 though!!!

[Greg Amy]

ITB? Be careful what you wish for!!!

+ elevenybillion. :cool:

RWD is a deal-breaker for me...spent plenty fo time in FWD racecars in the 90's.

Learn to road-race front-wheel-drive, autocrosser!!!

[shwah]

Cool. We can debate whether FWD may in fact be an advantage at lower hp levels - low enough that a properly set up car cannot spin the tires unless off the paved surface.

I think it is, especially in terms of corner exit speed.

The MR2 IMO has terrific potential in ITB, the 320 does too, the 318 just proved that it has what it takes, we all know about the Volvo 142, then there are those Porsches. I expect the 924 to keep getting faster, and really look forward to seeing the 914 that will be hitting the track next year. Lots of rwd choices.

However - let's just remember that diversity and good racing at the front does not a healthy class make. ITB is in good shape, don't get me wrong, but go take a look at the top 5 at the runoffs in GP for 05-07. Those were great races from cars spanning 4 decades with front and rear drive, but the class is dead. Point being, we need to aggressively continue to support our IT classes and keep new iron flowing in - without waiting for classification requests.

[924Guy]

RWD is a deal-breaker for me...spent plenty fo time in FWD racecars in the 90's. I do love V's 924 though!!!

You could just buy it, you know... just 'cause I haven't bothered listing it doesn't mean it's not for sale! Was actually planning to post it after the ARRC, but that race has left me with a little unfinished business first...

[Greg Amy]

Cool. We can debate whether FWD may in fact be an advantage at lower hp levels...

+1. And, in fact, Andy and I have, in the context of FWD "subtractors". It's my contention that FWD is an advantage in ITC; probably dead-even in ITB; the subtractor is near-perfect in ITA; but the subtractor is too small in ITS and WAAAYYY too small in ITR.

Yeah, I'm going off on a tangent, but...

There are two primary factors that make this so: marginal weight of the RWD system vs. FWD as a percentage of the car's total weight, and the ability to put power down to the ground. In ITC, the marginal "cost" of a heavier RWD system far exceeds its benefits, and because of the lower power and torque there's less likelihood of breaking traction under power, plus there just not a whole helluva lot of weight transfer (which is one of RWD's primary advantages). I'm sure this would float like a lead balloon, but the FWD "subtractor" in ITC could probably be eliminated.

In ITS and ITR, however, the marginal "cost" of a RWD system is far, far less a factor as a percentage of total weight, and the power available can easily exceed the traction capability of the front wheels (which are now compromising between forward traction and lateral loads). IMO, the "subtractor" for FWD on those two classes should be increased.

Oh, well, back to beating up on ITB...

[Andy Bettencourt]

It would be a good excersize to try and tie some math to the theory. ITA to ITS goes from 50 to 100lbs. ITR need 150lbs? Geez that's a lot...but like you point out, we are talking about cars with pw/weights in the low 11's.

[JeffYoung]

And most of the ITR front drivers are already very light to begin with. You start taking 150 or 200 lbs off of say a Celica GTS and you have what, a 2200 lb car out there running against many cars that weigh 1000 lbs more.

I've seen some very fast Integras in S. I think we wait a bit and see how the FWD R cars do before any changes are made.

[dickita15]

ITB is so diverse, it would be cool to build something for sure...for me, it has to be RWD so the 924 and the MR2 would be the most viable. Wishing there was a Mazda-based choice! We would have a driver in there fo-sho!

Hey Ray-Ray, why don't you try ITA?

Well had you moved the 1st gen RX-7 to ITB...

[JoshS]

ITB is so diverse, it would be cool to build something for sure...for me, it has to be RWD so the 924 and the MR2 would be the most viable. Wishing there was a Mazda-based choice! We would have a driver in there fo-sho!

Hey Andy,

The old Raymond/Fletcher/Sirota '85 MR2 is for sale again for a giveaway price. 2-time Solo national champ car, nice and light too. Pretty solid, still street-driven, but needs paint badly.

Come on, you know you want it, you can't turn down a car with a pedigree!