Pit Fire Incident at VIR????

[krysdean]

I received an e-mail this morning (10/27/2008) that alluded to a pit fire incident at VIR this past weekend, I know nothing about it and I am not comfortable making the wholesale changes suggested until I know what happened and get some feedback from the competitors. If anyone can give me any information I would appreciate it. While we are on the subject, how do YOU, the competitors think we could improve fire safety in the pits?

Krys Dean
ECR Series Chief Steward, South

[Knestis]

>> ...I am not comfortable making the wholesale changes suggested ...

What wholesale changes are suggested?

K

[Ron Earp]

I was at VIR this weekend but did not witness the pit fire.

I have worked in the pits though for many ECRs and four times at the VIR 13 Hour enduro. I share your concern for pit safety - none of us was want to be injured in the pits for any reason, but fire is a particularly dangerous hazard for obvious reasons. I think that fire safety should be number one on any competitors’ list of concerns when planning out a pit strategy and I also feel the pit stewards should be extremely diligent about fire safety.

But workers and stewards need to be aware of impediments to fire safety that the racers face.

I know one of the big concerns is fuel spillage in the pit area. Some spillage can be avoided simply by reducing human errors with fueling equipment. But our equipment, mandated by the class rules, also contributes to some of the fueling problems.

During ECRs and longer enduros Spec Miatas and SRFs are the most common cars you’ll find on the grid. But SMs must have a stock fuel filler neck with no additional air bleeds nor a dry break connector. The car is either fueled with a bottle and funnel or via a tube device connected to a bottle. Either method will generally result in some spillage, how much depends largely upon the skill of the person doing the fueling. If it were legal to fit a dry break system many competitors would do so although that would add additional cost to the car.

Many of the other cars running ECRs are in the Improved Touring cars class with these vehicles it is permissible to run stock fuel tanks or fuel cells. Either way the fueling procedure is largely the same – a bottle and funnel or some sort of bottle with tube. Basically about the same as an SM car and the results will be similar – some fuel will be spilled.

I think the majority of racers would love to improve the fire safety of their pit area but given the tools most of us are working with, stock tanks, funnels, and bottles, we’re doing pretty well from a safety standpoint.

Increasing the mandatory pit time might help some because the team would have less pressure to fuel the car as quickly as possible.

As Kirk mentioned, what are the suggested changes?

[Mike Mackaman]

I was there too, in the pits the first hour of the Saturday ECR, and all of the CCPS. Didn't see any fire, didn't hear about one while I was on course or after the Sunday race. Everyone played pretty nice as far as I saw. I commented to several people that I saw more good sportsmanship this weekend than I have seen in a while. I made it through the weekend without making contact with anyone or anything. And I did not see nearly the carnage that I have in years past.

If you know about how much fuel to put in, it makes it a lot easier to put it in cleanly. If you are trying to "get it full" you will spill some.

Mike

[RacerBowie]

I received an e-mail this morning (10/27/2008) that alluded to a pit fire incident at VIR this past weekend, I know nothing about it and I am not comfortable making the wholesale changes suggested until I know what happened and get some feedback from the competitors. If anyone can give me any information I would appreciate it. While we are on the subject, how do YOU, the competitors think we could improve fire safety in the pits?

Krys Dean
ECR Series Chief Steward, South

Cameron tells me he saw an IT7 catch fire, but it was in the engine compartment, and NOT related to fueling at all. Was there another fire?

[krysdean]

After a little more investigation, it turns out that there was no fire, but rather some concern from the officials that some of our practices are not safe, specifically it was pointed out that the fueler, his helper/catch can person/funnel holder AND the poerson holding the fire extenguisher should ALL be completely dressed in both fire suit and helmet with balaclava, it was pointed out theat fuel fumes can travel 8 to 10 feet in no time, I am not sure that most teams can afford to have three people kitted out, but it would be a good idea. They also wanted another 10 lb AB or ABC bottle or one 20lb ab or abc bottle. I have a little bit of experience with fire and AB fire extinguisher compound, in my opinion, if we are going to add a fire extenguisher to the 10 lb we already require it should be something other than an AB or ABC, preferably a "Cold Fire" bottle. AB or ABC bottles are OK for gasoline, and will do for electrical, but are almost useless on fiberglass and other composite materials, and the clean up is an absolute nightmare. How do you guys feel about these proposals? You are the ones who have to pay for it and you are the ones at risk.


As far as going to dry break systems, I don't see that happening, it is just to expensive for most racers and the cars we are racing simply don't lend themselves to that kind of equipment.

I will promise you this, this season in the South part of SEDIV, I will make it a point to talk about fire safety at every drivers meeting and we WILL be enforcing whatever rules we come up with this year. We will be concentrating on making our sport as safe and fun as we possible can.


Krys Dean, ECR Chief Steward, South

[seckerich]

With all due respect this is much to do about nothing. Some email eluded to a serious fire that evidently did not happen that is now cause for more cost and regulation? Get the actual pit report that would be filed with the stewards if there actually was a fire and then see if action is necessary.

[Knestis]

...and it would be a good idea to coordinate any changes in regulations with the regions that run longer enduros (NCR, 13 Hours; WDC, Summit 12; Longest Day; now Atl Region, etc.) and the Kumho Endurance Series organizers. A patchwork of different regulations only increases the chance that someone will make a mistake, while costing teams more than might be necessary.

K

[dickita15]

Up here in the northeast we do not require the person with the bottle to be in full nomex, just long sleeves long pants closed shoes. It used to say just the fueler had to have a fire suit but when we noticed a girl with a tank top holding the funnel we changed it to anyone who is over the wall and part of the fueling process has to have a fire suit. I do not see why the fire bottle guy has to be dressed any more that a flagger.

[Ron Earp]

the fueler, his helper/catch can person/funnel holder AND the poerson holding the fire extenguisher should ALL be completely dressed in both fire suit and helmet with balaclava

This is going to be a problem for a lot of folks driving ECRs. It is hard enough to scare up pit help for an ECR and usually that pit help is another driver - who is already suited up. But if we have to have an additional person suited up then many drivers will be hard pressed to get the minimum crew persons in proper attire.

[iambhooper]

Krys,

I have run 3-4 ECR's per year since I started racing in 2004, and crewed the Charge of the Headlight Brigade 5 times as both fueler and fire extingusher. I believe that fire safety is of the upmost importance. When my team runs in an ECR, we approach the refuling situation as follows: the driver entering the car operates the extingusher, while the one just out of the car fuels. This ensures several things: 1) all people across the wall have fires suits on, 2) the driver entering the car is minimizing his exposure to spilled gas as he is at a safe distance with the extinguisher.

If teams are shorthanded, there are generally enough people in fire suits, that a team could borrow a helping hand in a fix.

It is the responsibility of the Region to provide a suitable number of cold fire bottles on pit road, both manned and stationary. Cold fire is not in my budget, period.

[Greg Amy]

I do not see why the fire bottle guy has to be dressed any more that a flagger.

Only because the fire bottle/safety gal has a significantly higher probability of having to deal with a liquid-fueled fire; after all, that's their promary role. On the other hand, corner workers rarely find themselves in any fire situation, let alone a gasoline fire.

Personally, if I were "manning" the fuel-safety fire bottle on a fueling pit stop, I'd be significantly more likely to interject myself into a fire situation when clothed in full fire gear, than I would if I were in jeans and cotton sleeves. I suggest anyone involved in the safety and/or fueling situation should have full fire-retardant gear, including eye protection.

For comparison, Koni Challenge requires EVERYONE over the wall, regardless of role, to have fire and eye protection during pit stops (no helmets, yet). And they all have quick-release dry-break fire systems (though a team demonstrated at Miller that that's not always a catch-all situation...) - GA

[Super Swift]

This “incident” was caused when a pit lane Fire Worker forced teams to replace their Fire Bottle Person with a person in full Nomex. Teams explained to the Fire Worker that he was acting contrary to the ECR rules.

He said he would see to it that the rules would be changed by the next race.

We have been racing the ECR series since the inception (1990±) with the same rule in effect and have never seen a problem. I remember a fire in (2000±) at Road Atlanta where the current rule set was implemented perfectly. (I think the car even received the checker)

It seems unfair to compare the Pro series as they have NO minimum pit time and I do not recall their requirement to have a Fire Bottle Person over the wall on ready.

Leave the Rule alone!



Ben Robertson

[Team SSR]

We don't need to refuel for 1 1/2 hour ECR (so we don't). Do the majority of the cars actually have to add fuel, or is it just added during the race for weight reasons?

[Mazmarc63]

This “incident” was caused when a pit lane Fire Worker forced teams to replace their Fire Bottle Person with a person in full Nomex. Teams explained to the Fire Worker that he was acting contrary to the ECR rules.

He said he would see to it that the rules would be changed by the next race.

We have been racing the ECR series since the inception (1990±) with the same rule in effect and have never seen a problem. I remember a fire in (2000±) at Road Atlanta where the current rule set was implemented perfectly. (I think the car even received the checker)

It seems unfair to compare the Pro series as they have NO minimum pit time and I do not recall their requirement to have a Fire Bottle Person over the wall on ready.

Leave the Rule alone!



Ben Robertson

Exactly what Ben said. I too have been running the ECR series since 1994. In that time, I have seen a total of one pit stop fire. I happened to be changing tires on that car at Road Atlanta. The fire was quickly extinguished, the pit stop was completed and the car continued.

Nothing is broken. Leave the rule alone.

Hey Greg, I think you mis-spoke here: On the other hand, corner workers rarely find themselves in any fire situation, let alone a gasoline fire.

I have extinguished more fires as a corner worker than I have ever seen during any pit stop or paddock experiment. I've even been on TV doing it.

[JeffYoung]

Yes, we have to refuel the Z to make an hour and a half. Some SMs have to refuel too, 1.5 hours is right at the limit of their endurance.

We don't need to refuel for 1 1/2 hour ECR (so we don't). Do the majority of the cars actually have to add fuel, or is it just added during the race for weight reasons?

[BruceG]

Seems like some folks need to get their facts straight before creating a hornet's nest. Didn't this thread start with a "alleged" pit fire?

[JeffYoung]

It was huge! A fireball that could be seen in Milton! We all died!

[tim240z]

More fuel for the fire (Pun intended )

This thread gave me flashbacks to one of the 12 hour races at Homestead. I was the fueler for Guy Marvin and Greg Ira in their #33 240z. We got the word from Charles Perry (third driver) that the car had almost no brakes and needed to come in for an immediate unscheduled pit stop. As many of you know you’re allowed to fuel the vehicle while wrenching on the opposite side of the car so it was a "perfect" opportunity to do the front brake swap. Well as it turns out the piston had popped out of the caliper spewing very hot brake fluid over an area rich in hot tire rubber and an EXTREMLY hot brake rotor. Needless to say we got flames. Meanwhile I’m holding the jug of gas filling the fuel cell through a giant funnel (not very efficient and can be very messy.) Luckily I was able to halt the fill and back away from the car as the fire was contained and extinguished before reaching fuel vapors.

[Greg Amy]

Hey Greg, I think you mis-spoke here: On the other hand, corner workers rarely find themselves in any fire situation, let alone a gasoline fire.

I have extinguished more fires as a corner worker than I have ever seen during any pit stop or paddock experiment. I've even been on TV doing it.

Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, too...?

No, I didn't mis-speak.

Your fires as a corner worker were - what? - electrical fires, engine oil fires, grass fires, maybe Fiberglas bodywork fires? Never a spewing/spilling fuel fire, right? Ever "seen" a pit lane spewed-gasoline fire, from someone spilling fuel all over the place and it ignites? I have, several times. It ain't pretty. Imagine fuel splashing out of a fuel filler - especially one that's not a dry break so it's not contained - and spilling onto the fire bottle guy who's wearing an absorbent cotton long-sleeve t-shirt. Now imagine the fuel on the car catching fire due to hitting the hot exhaust (that exact scenario happened this past June at the Summit 12). Now imagine a ball of fire expanding outwards to consume the fuel fumes, lighting up any and all gasoline it can find. Including what's on that cotton t-shirt.

The thing here is, you may think the risks of a fire happening in the pits are low; I disagree, I think we've just been lucky. But, significantly more importantly, the damage that a gasoline fire in the pits can/will cause if it does happen are enormous. And if all it takes to minimize that damage is that someone with a fire bottle has to wear a Nomex suit and safety glasses - especially given than a shiiteload of driver suits are about to become available real damn cheap due to the new SFI requirements - I really don't see how this is a show-stopper, or, really, nothing but a no-brainer...

In my opinion, we've been lucky. Let's keep hoping we continue to be so...