Intro from new member & E30 thoughts

[gottagofast13]

I just found this forum and joined today. Short background on me: I've been doing DEs for the past 7 years, instructing for 5 years, and I just became Chief Instructor for the Kansas City BMW Club. About 2 years ago I bought a "built" E30 325i from a BMW Club racer in California. The car has been an absolute nightmare: found out it had a warped head/cam, had to replace driveshaft, diff, all calipers, shocks, etc. The suspension, brakes, and diff are sorted, but my rebuilt engine only lasted 4 races. I'm currently using a 1987 junkyard engine that apparently had a head rebuild ~5 years ago. I've been competitive and won a few races when the car was running, but since I put the latest junkyard engine in I've been finishing 2nd/3rd.

If you don't mind, please post a short intro and tell me about yourself.

Just out of curiousity, what are your guys thoughts about the E30 being competitive in ITS? I've done fairly well so far, but I'm having a really tough time keeping up with an E36 and a Gen2 RX7. The E36 pulls 10+ car lengths and the Gen2 RX7 pulls at least 8 car lengths on ~2000' straights. Do you guys think this is just a function of a tired/old motor in my car, or is the E30 just not a competitive car in this class? I'd appreciate any thoughts.

[Z3_GoCar]

Let me be the first to say "Welcome"Sorry to hear about your issues with the used race car. That's the down side to buying someone elses car and not build it your self. Sound to me you need a blueprint of your current motor. I've seen video of an ITS E30 beating up on an ITR Z3. Josh, would you care to share the link.James

[JLawton]

Sorry to hear about the problems. It can get discouraging sometimes!!

This is coming from a non BMW racer and non ITS racer, but race in a very competitive region.

I think the E30 is going to have a tough time when there's good competition. In the Northeast and Southeast the E36s and RX7s are well developed and well driven.

It's tough being married to a certain manufacturer or model. It can be hard to walk away but if the E30 is going to take a ton of money to prep to 10/10ths................. I know the feeling, I was a Porsche guy for years but got tired of spending way too much money to get my butt kicked. Now I have a much less expensive car that does very well and is a blast to drive (although I get laughed at all the time: "You race a WHAT????")

Hope I'm not sounding too negative, but having "been there, done that" I thought I would share my thoughts.....

(Oh, and I also have an E36 M3 as a daily driver!!)

Good luck!!

[ScottL]

I'd like to springboard off that introduction by welcoming you and introducing myself! I'm also an E30 driver aiming for ITS.

I started out as a flagger and pit worker for SCCA. Did that for a few seasons until I bought an '87 325is two years ago. The car was in worse shape than I thought but I managed to fix all the high-priority items and get out on the track. I now have about 24 track days with BMWCCA, NASA, SCCA, and Chin at various tracks on the East Coast. I was running essentially a stock 325is with H&R race springs and Bilstein Sports.

The seemingly bullet proof engine had about 180K on the clock when I removed the instrument cluster. This thing just doesn't stop. Woody Hair was my first instructor and I still remember him telling me I was shifting too early. "These things love to rev." That was my first time on track and the car was *ahem* not quite ready. It was leaking gas around the transfer pump. Wires were hanging everywhere. The suspension was mushy. The highlight came when the guibo exploded at 90mph just before the braking zone into turn 1. What a weekend that was.

Anyway, the original goal was to run NASA Spec E30. For various reasons, I switched to ITS. Everybody I spoke to said that the E30 would not be competitive in that class but I decided to do it anyway. I still have a lot to learn in terms of driving skill and racecraft, so the primary goal is to get seat time in a competition environment. I'm not going to be a front runner any time soon.

This year, the car has morphed into a real race car. Cage, seats, harnesses, R-comps, etc. I'm preparing to have an SCCA tech inspection done in a couple of weeks so I can get the log book in time for my first SCCA comp school in October. I still have some work to do over the winter. The rear end needs to come out for an overhaul and I hope to start building a new engine.

The fact that I found other E30 (and BMW) people at the track is a huge bonus. Marshall Lytle and Chad DeHaven gave me some great pointers at the last MARRS event at Summit Point. I hope to be there in the paddock with the rest of the IT crew next season!

[gottagofast13]

Let me be the first to say "Welcome"Sorry to hear about your issues with the used race car. That's the down side to buying someone elses car and not build it your self. Sound to me you need a blueprint of your current motor. I've seen video of an ITS E30 beating up on an ITR Z3. Josh, would you care to share the link.James

Thanks for the welcome. Going into this hobby, I had a lot of people tell me that buying a used racecar is the way to go...benefit from the thousands of dollars someone else will lose.

After this experience, I'm a believer in building your car yourself. The one exception I can see is buying a car from someone you know well that you know has taken care of the car.

While my rebuilt motor was running (1st year of racing), I won every race that I completed (one mechanical and one 3#s light).

At that point the motor felt pretty strong but the suspension needed a lot of work. I didn't get the suspension sorted until after the engine died, so I've never had both at the same time...I'm thinking it can be competitive but I've never had everything working at the same time to prove this. I have 1 win with the junker motor and a whole bunch of 2nd/3rds.

I know my engine is really tired, but I just don't know if a rebuilt engine will make up the 10+ car length differential (on straights) that I'm seeing against an E36 competitor. I'm faster in the turns, but not that much faster. I'll post some video from my most recent race once I can get it uploaded to Fototime.

[JoshS]

Let me be the first to say "Welcome"Sorry to hear about your issues with the used race car. That's the down side to buying someone elses car and not build it your self. Sound to me you need a blueprint of your current motor. I've seen video of an ITS E30 beating up on an ITR Z3. Josh, would you care to share the link.James

Here you go, from labor day weekend:
http://www.godoggoracing.org/v/Video...80901.wmv.html

I recommend watching all the way to the end, the finish is quite dramatic! The video is edited down to 21 minutes, it was too dramatic to cut anything else.

This video is shot from my ITR car -- still original stock engine, but otherwise a pretty good car, maybe some suspension tweaks left to go, it's still pushy in slow turns, and of course some power left to be had in engine internals.

I'm easily the fastest in ITR, but our local (San Francisco Region) ITS class is DOMINATED by Doug Makishima's E30 325i, and he and I race very close, and this race was just one example of some really fun races I've had with him. Hard to believe it's "only" an ITS car sometimes. He owns some of our ITS track records, and is very close on the others. And he also still has a lot of room left in car improvements, mostly in suspension for him (as you'll see from the video.)

[gottagofast13]

Sorry to hear about the problems. It can get discouraging sometimes!!

This is coming from a non BMW racer and non ITS racer, but race in a very competitive region.

I think the E30 is going to have a tough time when there's good competition. In the Northeast and Southeast the E36s and RX7s are well developed and well driven.

It's tough being married to a certain manufacturer or model. It can be hard to walk away but if the E30 is going to take a ton of money to prep to 10/10ths................. I know the feeling, I was a Porsche guy for years but got tired of spending way too much money to get my butt kicked. Now I have a much less expensive car that does very well and is a blast to drive (although I get laughed at all the time: "You race a WHAT????")

Hope I'm not sounding too negative, but having "been there, done that" I thought I would share my thoughts.....

(Oh, and I also have an E36 M3 as a daily driver!!)

Good luck!!

For a while I was stuck to BMWs, but I've considered many times recently moving to Mazda...it's tough to beat the support they provide. In the classifieds I saw an EP RX7 that sounds appealing.

[lateapex911]

Welcome!

I've been reading a lot on the E30s lately. I seem to recall reading about one in the south that either hounded or beat Kip VanSteenberg in his ITS car, which is no mean feat. he's good. Really good. if prepped right, I think they can really do well.

Also, I'd think twice, maybe three times before buying a Prepared car. They are even more work, and more expense, and the competition is not nearly as deep in many parts of the country. I'm a bit biased, but I think the guys who run IT do a better job with the category than the guys who run Prod.

No matter what, do some serious digging around before switching cars/categories.

[mlytle]

welcome to ITS! i am a recovering E30 ITS racer now driving an E36 in ITR. you seem to have acquired a lemon. the E30 325 is a pretty bullet proof car. I bought mine fully built with two years of racing on it. i drove it for the first two years i raced and had no problems at all. It was a blast to drive. the person i sold it to 5 years ago is still racing it, essentially unchanged. great cars if you build them right. in IT trim the engine is barely stressed. before the unrestricted E36 arrived on the scene, the E30 was the car to beat in the mid-atlantic region. a well sorted one will still be competitive. we have 4-5 of them racing in ITS in the DC region with Scott bringing a new one to the game next season.

marshall
MARRS ITR #64

[gottagofast13]

welcome to ITS! i am a recovering E30 ITS racer now driving an E36 in ITR. you seem to have acquired a lemon. the E30 325 is a pretty bullet proof car. I bought mine fully built with two years of racing on it. i drove it for the first two years i raced and had no problems at all. It was a blast to drive. the person i sold it to 5 years ago is still racing it, essentially unchanged. great cars if you build them right. in IT trim the engine is barely stressed. before the unrestricted E36 arrived on the scene, the E30 was the car to beat in the mid-atlantic region. a well sorted one will still be competitive. we have 4-5 of them racing in ITS in the DC region with Scott bringing a new one to the game next season.

marshall
MARRS ITR #64

Thanks for the input Marshall. Now that the car is developed (except the engine), I have no doubt that it can be competitive in braking/handling. The one area of question for me is straight-line speed. After watching JoshS video and input from you guys, I think it has the potential once I do decide to rebuild.

A pro-racer friend of mine told me before I got into racing to start with an underdeveloped (low on power) car to force myself to develop my racecraft. At this point I've finished 2nd about 5 times where I could've won with more power. If I can develop my skills enough to win with this junker motor, I hope to be really competitive outside my region.

It's good hearing comments from Marshall, JoshS, and others that have seen the E30 can be competitive in ITS.

[gottagofast13]

Here you go, from labor day weekend:
http://www.godoggoracing.org/v/Video...80901.wmv.html

I recommend watching all the way to the end, the finish is quite dramatic! The video is edited down to 21 minutes, it was too dramatic to cut anything else.

This video is shot from my ITR car -- still original stock engine, but otherwise a pretty good car, maybe some suspension tweaks left to go, it's still pushy in slow turns, and of course some power left to be had in engine internals.

I'm easily the fastest in ITR, but our local (San Francisco Region) ITS class is DOMINATED by Doug Makishima's E30 325i, and he and I race very close, and this race was just one example of some really fun races I've had with him. Hard to believe it's "only" an ITS car sometimes. He owns some of our ITS track records, and is very close on the others. And he also still has a lot of room left in car improvements, mostly in suspension for him (as you'll see from the video.)

Great video...that was quite a battle. Here's a 2nd place finish for me where I just couldn't quite close the deal: http://www.fototime.com/3E3486DC440E925/conv.wmv (the battle really starts around the 8:00 mark)

Even without power (fresh engine), I think I should be able to pull of a win in this type of situation.

[gottagofast13]

Welcome!

I've been reading a lot on the E30s lately. I seem to recall reading about one in the south that either hounded or beat Kip VanSteenberg in his ITS car, which is no mean feat. he's good. Really good. if prepped right, I think they can really do well.

Also, I'd think twice, maybe three times before buying a Prepared car. They are even more work, and more expense, and the competition is not nearly as deep in many parts of the country. I'm a bit biased, but I think the guys who run IT do a better job with the category than the guys who run Prod.

No matter what, do some serious digging around before switching cars/categories.

I really appreciate the input. The only reason I'd really consider Production is to race a national class. Although I have moments where I consider going to something like Production, I do think that IT is a great place to race economically and develop myself.

[Speed Raycer]

Josh, good video. You may want to re-introduce Doug to GCR 6.8.1.C & D as there were a few "suspect line changes" that seemed pretty blatent. Could have sworn there was something in the GCR limiting the amount of "defensive moves" but couldn't find anything in the quick search

[JoshS]

Josh, good video. You may want to re-introduce Doug to GCR 6.8.1.C & D as there were a few "suspect line changes" that seemed pretty blatent. Could have sworn there was something in the GCR limiting the amount of "defensive moves" but couldn't find anything in the quick search

Huh. I re-read those sections and you're technically right, but frankly, I don't think he did anything wrong. I probably would have done exactly the same things. We're racing after all, he's supposed to make it sort of hard to pass ... right? It certainly made it more fun for me.

[Z3_GoCar]

Hey Josh,

If you want a second crack at Infineon (I'd rather call it Sears Point but....) you should check out the fall vintage festival with BMW club. I'm sure you could talk your way out of the sticker requirement for just one or two races.

http://www.sfrscca.org/images/2008/V...intageinfo.pdf

I think Tom Bell could use the company.

James

[Speed Raycer]

We're racing after all, he's supposed to make it sort of hard to pass ... right? It certainly made it more fun for me.

Agreed.... you were in the heat of battle... a couple of them just jumped out at me especially on that back straight when you had a run on him, he shut the door, then you switched back to the inside and he changed his line & came back over to block

Back on topic

[chuck baader]

Welcome to E30 madness. Glad you are getting your car sorted. I think, for ITS, the car will be horsepower limited, but with the lower weight can still be quite competitive. Chuck

[gottagofast13]

Welcome to E30 madness. Glad you are getting your car sorted. I think, for ITS, the car will be horsepower limited, but with the lower weight can still be quite competitive. Chuck

I heard some rumors that the E30 was going to get some help, but I didn't hear of any specifics.

Do you guys know anything? Are they considering dropping weight at all? It's been a while, but when I looked in the past I thought E30s seemed to be low on the hp/weight ratio compared to some of our competitors.

[lateapex911]

I heard some rumors that the E30 was going to get some help, but I didn't hear of any specifics.

Do you guys know anything? Are they considering dropping weight at all? It's been a while, but when I looked in the past I thought E30s seemed to be low on the hp/weight ratio compared to some of our competitors.

Oh, do tell! Where did you hear such rumours?

Just to be open, i'm on the ITAC...there has been no such request, nor do i recall any discussion.

And, for what it's worth, cars are classed in IT with assumed gains. There is a process, but the aim is stability and repeatability, not getting the weight to the exact pound. So, some cars might make a tad more, or less than assumed power, or handle better or worse, or brake better...or worse.

it's the competitors job to cull the list and do his homework.

That's not to say that there aren't some cars out there that couldn't stand some corrections...the list has been around since 84, so a letter requesting the process being run is on order if something seems totally out of whack.

[gottagofast13]

Oh, do tell! Where did you hear such rumours?

Just to be open, i'm on the ITAC...there has been no such request, nor do i recall any discussion.

And, for what it's worth, cars are classed in IT with assumed gains. There is a process, but the aim is stability and repeatability, not getting the weight to the exact pound. So, some cars might make a tad more, or less than assumed power, or handle better or worse, or brake better...or worse.

it's the competitors job to cull the list and do his homework.

That's not to say that there aren't some cars out there that couldn't stand some corrections...the list has been around since 84, so a letter requesting the process being run is on order if something seems totally out of whack.

The "rumor" I heard was on another forum and directed me to this forum to find more information. After picking through many sections on this forum, I haven't found anything.

My "old" engine has some miles on it and a not-so-fresh head, but the compression numbers are pretty decent. This video is what makes me think the E30 needs a little weight drop to have a fair chance against the E36s and Gen2 RX7s (watch the E36 pull me when I have a lot of momentum on him at the 4:00 mark): http://www.fototime.com/95D6120A48491F7/conv.wmv

The E36 did have a suspension issue that day, or it wouldn't have been so easy to get by him. The RX7 kept getting lost at T8 which made him easy to catch. I really don't think the E30 has a handling advantage over either of these cars, but it seems to have a serious power disadvantage. I guess the final possibility is that my engine is more tired than I thought.