What does ITA/ITS look like in 3-5yrs?

[tnord]

Curious about what people think ITA & ITS will look like over the next 3-5 years. What cars will be competitive that aren't currently being run right now? What cars might fade out? Will IT go national? What happens with car counts if it stays regional/goes nat'l?

Feel free to throw in a broader response of what SCCA as a whole looks like over the same time period.

[Knestis]

I still wouldn't count out the idea of IT ending up a National category. It's just too good for that program to ignore, even if some current Regional IT drivers - and a BUNCH of current National drivers in other categories - think it's a bad idea for them. I have my own hyptheses about how that will shake out but they've been discussed in depth here before...

We'll have to address the ABS/stability control/etc. question more seriously than we have to date. There will come a time sooner or later when those technologies WILL end up on the track in IT cars.

As performance envelopes of new cars inch up, expect to see brands appear in ITA that are generally considered "lower market" (e.g., the Koreans) than what we're used to.

K

[tnord]

i think i know what the utopian answer to this question is....but how will including TC & ABS vehicles into IT affect the competitiveness of non-equipped cars.

<----also anticipates IT going national within this timeframe, but still fears a similar life cycle to SM.

[Doc Bro]

I think the landscape of ITA will certainly continue to evolve into a predominantly Miata class. Our NE regional weekend ITA entries approach the 50% count, Miatas to all other ITA entries (this weekend 8 out of 20). The car is popular enough for the "blueprint" to be known or close to known, thus eliminating countless hours and dollars of independant development to the ITA newcomer. This makes the car very atttractive. I also think ITS will see a growth of Miatas as folks become more aware of the potential of the car in IT trim. It wins, its easy to drive, parts are readily available, its nicely classed:cool:, the mysteries have been discovered, and its economical....the perfect racecar, and a great place for the IT newbie to start.

As far as national vs. regional. I think it really depends on what the climate of the leadership is. If the leadership wants it then it will be national.

R

[lateapex911]

As far as national vs. regional. I think it really depends on what the climate of the leadership is. If the leadership wants it then it will be national.

R

I dunno about that. Leadership has shown the ability to cave to the memberships pressures and complaining time and time again. And I would bet that any "vote" on IT going national would be negative. Most National class drivers would rightly see it as a threat to their turf (be it a top 10 class run group at the Runoffs, or more classes that hasten their class's demise) and would vote against it instantly.

Of the IT guys, many will apply thought processes that will paint the sky falling, and vote against it...

Net/net, lots of negative votes will make it difficult for the BoD to go along with it. They just don't want to piss off their friends, even if they think it's for the greater good.

[JeffYoung]

I agree with a fair amount of that, but wil point out that the "fast" Miatas are coming out of top prep shops with top level drivers (Flatout/ISC, etc.).

I'll also note that an RX7 beat MVS by a nose at Daytona on Sunday, and a E46 handed it to the rest of the field that day. On a "handling" track, at Barber, MVS and an E30 had a great race running top shelf times, and the E30 (an E30!) won.

Jake, we've known each other for a while and you know I respect your opinions. I think some of the anti-national IT sentiment is sky is falling stuff, but I think some of it -- I hope my thought -- is legitimate. I'm afraid of diluted fields if we don't end the regional/national discussion all together, and I am afraid of much more serious rules creep by more powerful political players if we go national. I'm afraid we'll lose some of the "outlaw run by racers" class mentality that we have now that I love.

I think the landscape of ITA will certainly continue to evolve into a predominantly Miata class. Our NE regional weekend ITA entries approach the 50% count, Miatas to all other ITA entries (this weekend 8 out of 20). The car is popular enough for the "blueprint" to be known or close to known, thus eliminating countless hours and dollars of independant development to the ITA newcomer. This makes the car very atttractive. I also think ITS will see a growth of Miatas as folks become more aware of the potential of the car in IT trim. It wins, its easy to drive, parts are readily available, its nicely classed:cool:, the mysteries have been discovered, and its economical....the perfect racecar, and a great place for the IT newbie to start.

As far as national vs. regional. I think it really depends on what the climate of the leadership is. If the leadership wants it then it will be national.

R

[Doc Bro]

and I am afraid of much more serious rules creep by more powerful political players if we go national. I'm afraid we'll lose some of the "outlaw run by racers" class mentality that we have now that I love.

Amen.


R

[lateapex911]

Jake, we've known each other for a while and you know I respect your opinions. I think some of the anti-national IT sentiment is sky is falling stuff, but I think some of it -- I hope my thought -- is legitimate. I'm afraid of diluted fields if we don't end the regional/national discussion all together, and I am afraid of much more serious rules creep by more powerful political players if we go national. I'm afraid we'll lose some of the "outlaw run by racers" class mentality that we have now that I love.

I hear ya man!

My comment was based on lots of comments I've seen/heard from IT racers who respond off the cuff with silly comments. Critacal thinkers can come to different, but respected conclusions, but polls often return the reactions of the polled rather than carefully thought out responses. I was just suggesting that, along with the overwhelming negative response the non IT people will have, the amount of IT folk who respond off the cuff would doom such a concept.

[tnord]

so....back on track and away from yet another national discussion....

will ITA/S/R strengthen over the next few years, remain the same, or weaken? and why?

[Ron Earp]

My comment was based on lots of comments I've seen/heard from IT racers who respond off the cuff with silly comments. Critacal thinkers can come to different, but respected conclusions, but polls often return the reactions of the polled rather than carefully thought out responses. I was just suggesting that, along with the overwhelming negative response the non IT people will have, the amount of IT folk who respond off the cuff would doom such a concept.

I agree with you that a simple poll will produce a lot of negative responses. It is simply human nature to resist changing a stable enviroment.

In defense of some of the knee jerk comments produced the last time this topic was brought up, the reason to go national was never fully explained. I think if the group asking about "National IT" will carefully back the concept with tangible benefits the outcome might be a bit different. You definitely see less irrational thought and more constructive criticism.

[Andy Bettencourt]

ITA as a Miata class depends on your definition of 'predominantly'. Of those 8 Rob speeks of (of 20) 6 are pure SM's double dipping. So in reality, only 2 are real ITA cars. Interestingly, there are just as many Escort GT's (2) and Z3's (2) as 'real' ITA Miata's in that race.

ITA and ITS look great for the future IMHO. ITA will always have a metric shit-ton of Honda choices with tons of knowledge base, the 1.6 and 1.8 Miata getting built, SM crossovers and some other intersting choices like the various Nissans. Full fields for years I would think.

ITS should stay strong as well. RX-7's are all over (parts are becoming very scarce), the 323's are fast, the 944S has shown it can win, the M2 Miata is another good choice (so few around). I think it depends on your track as to what you may build.

[JeffYoung]

Then we agree 100%

I hear ya man!

My comment was based on lots of comments I've seen/heard from IT racers who respond off the cuff with silly comments. Critacal thinkers can come to different, but respected conclusions, but polls often return the reactions of the polled rather than carefully thought out responses. I was just suggesting that, along with the overwhelming negative response the non IT people will have, the amount of IT folk who respond off the cuff would doom such a concept.

[JeffYoung]

Sorry, didn't mean to get off track.

Right now, in my 4 years of racing, ITS and A are the strongest they have ever been in the SEDiv. S has several chassis that can win -- 944S, Miata, 240/260/280z, BMW E46, E30, RX7, TR8 is close! lol...Jensen Healey...not so much. Car counts are up and frankly, some of that is because the big speed shops (BWorld and SSource) no longer have cars and teams in the game.

R will eventually cut into S, I agree. Most S guys I know are thinking of going R at some point when the numbers come up. R is building, but at a slower rate than I expected/hoped. Maybe in 5 years it will have fields equal to S.

But just as A has flourished "under" S with cool car choices, I think S will continue to be ok with its wide range of cars that are cool and can win. S does admittedly appeal to a different sort -- note that lack of S guys on roadrace-autox.com which is primarily a frontdriver Honda/Acura board -- than A, but I think the desire for folks to race 944s and RX7s and 240s will be enough to keep the class healthy for another 10 years.

A I know less about. In the SEDiv, while it looks healthy, it's nothing compared to what you see up North.

so....back on track and away from yet another national discussion....

will ITA/S/R strengthen over the next few years, remain the same, or weaken? and why?

[ulfelder]

Sorry, didn't mean to get off track.

... Most S guys I know are thinking of going R at some point when the numbers come up. R is building, but at a slower rate than I expected/hoped. Maybe in 5 years it will have fields equal to S.

This sounds about right. I think the main thing slowing the transition is that everything about an R car is relatively expensive, starting with the donor.

This season, I'm wrapping up my seventh and last year in an ITS RX-7. Next year it's an ITS Miata. 4 years down the road or so, I expect it'll be an ITR RX-8.

Steve Ulfelder
Flatout Motorsports
05 ITS

[seckerich]

I am in about the same situation. I love IT and the fact you can race a car for years and it still has value when you sell it. Stable rules and large fields are what make that possible. I sold the ITS RX7 to go ITR RX8 but dumped it when the listing came out. The lure was too great so I have another ITS RX now. I will go ITR later if it gets straightened out. It will grow slowly with the cost of the cars. Too much money to build cars on chance.

[pballance]

...Stable rules and large fields are what make that possible. ....

As I relative newcomer this is what attracted me. Not only that, lower $$ than other areas for noob's. I do not want to enter into the " $$$ value" of spec classes, that is for another thread.

I am looking for another S or R car now. Parts for the <insert 25+ year old but still competitive car> are getting slimmer and slimmer and I anticipate needing to move to a newer car in the next couple of years.

As R develops and cars like the RX8 and others start to enter the equation I think you will see another jump in IT participation. It is the one thing, IMHO, that is needed to appeal to the younger entry level drivers. Our old 25+ year old cars may appeal to us but to keep the participation levels up we need an influx of newer, competitive cars that have an appeal to the younger drivers.

Just my $.02 worth........

[JeffYoung]

Paul, you are spot on, and that's why guys like Ron (did the first ITR spreadsheet), Andy, Bill M., Scott, Dick, Jake, etc. worked hard to get ITR into the real world. We all knew IT needed new "car blood" to survive, and that's the primary reason there is an ITR.

[DavidM]

I think a lot of it depends on how the economy goes in the next few years. If it gets better then fields will grow, if it stays the same or gets worse then fields are going to shrink.

It will be interesting to see how some of the recent rule changes play out in a couple years. The overall net should be faster cars, but I think the delta between the front guys and the mid-field guys will increase as a result.

I think you'll likely see the same cars running in three years that you see today. From what I've observed, it's usually guys that have been racing a while that build new cars. It's not newbies in their first season. With the glut of built cars currently for sale, somebody is going to really have to want to build a new car for a new car to show up racing. I just don't see that happening. The current list of cars will continue to be developed and get faster. I think you're looking at a longer timeframe before you start to see a significant number of new cars.

David

[Ron Earp]

It is the one thing, IMHO, that is needed to appeal to the younger entry level drivers. Our old 25+ year old cars may appeal to us but to keep the participation levels up we need an influx of newer, competitive cars that have an appeal to the younger drivers.

Right on, exactly why there is ITR as others have written. It is a good step in the right direction and I think the class will grow in the coming years.

The SCCA has a ways to go still. Forced induction and AWD cars are here to stay but have no competitive and well attended class in IT to play (yes they can run in ITE, but you know as well as I do that is because we don't know how to deal with them).

I think forced induction and AWD will have to be dealt with in the coming years. As Kirk mentions, probably about the same time ABS, traction control, and other electronic nannies will need to be considered while classing.

[tnord]

Sorry, didn't mean to get off track.

Car counts are up and frankly, some of that is because the big speed shops (BWorld and SSource) no longer have cars and teams in the game.

who will almost certainly come back if IT goes national. but back on topic.

R will eventually cut into S, I agree. Most S guys I know are thinking of going R at some point when the numbers come up.

i'm curious as to why this is? are there a group of people who just HAVE to be in the fastest IT class that exists?

But just as A has flourished "under" S with cool car choices, I think S will continue to be ok with its wide range of cars that are cool and can win. S does admittedly appeal to a different sort -- note that lack of S guys on roadrace-autox.com which is primarily a frontdriver Honda/Acura board -- than A, but I think the desire for folks to race 944s and RX7s and 240s will be enough to keep the class healthy for another 10 years.

what is different about the demographic in A compared to S? what do you think causes this difference? are there any cars in the works waiting to be classed that could replenish the older 240s?