What does ITA/ITS look like in 3-5yrs?

[Ron Earp]

i'm curious as to why this is? are there a group of people who just HAVE to be in the fastest IT class that exists?

Yes there is. I have to say that is how I picked ITS three years ago. Not because I thought I was fast, good, or anything else. But I figured if I was going to do something then I was going "all in". I now realize that this thinking was quite, how shall I say it, stupid, but I was naive about the entire scene. And I'm not afraid to admit it. Lots of things I'd do different now but that would be quite an essay.

what is different about the demographic in A compared to S? what do you think causes this difference? are there any cars in the works waiting to be classed that could replenish the older 240s?

It appears that the ITA group is mainly the FWD cars - hot hatches, Hondas, and so on. ITA seems to be populated with folks that enjoy these cars or maybe grew up driving them. I never owned a front wheel drive car until about four years ago so I was more interested in the "old school" S cars.

My guess is ITA could be highly appealing to new young racers who are used to the FWD cars and like hotting them up, except that the average modern FWD car has more stock horsepower than can be comfortably classed in ITA.

[MMiskoe]

My two cents:

The ABS/Stability control issue is huge. So few cars now (or 5 years ago) were without it and it is becoming more intrenched in the ECU programming and brake biasing. Allowing newer cars to utilize it will make for another round of arguing about how it alters the relative merits of those with vrs without.

ITA will become even more FWD as there are only a few RWD cars eligible and the RX7's and 318 BWM's will age out.

ITS will see the same change, more FWD as there are more FWD cars w/ ITS potential than there were 10 years ago. (simple fact is that today, there are Miatas, BMWS and Mercedes as lower powered RWD cars, everything else is bigger HP).

Eventually the RX7's will go the way of the 240Z's, too old, too few parts. This will affect the north east sooner than anywhere else as we have the rust to contend with that you Confederates get to avoid.

Donor BMW E46's will get cheaper as they get older so you will see more of them, replacing the RX7s. ITR cars will get cheaper & more prevalent, stealing car counts away from ITS and ITA.

This is considering that the rule package stays pretty much as is.

Matt

[esuvee]

ITSolstice sure sounds better than ITRolstice. I am eagerly awaiting the classification of this car when it's time comes. If I were a better gambler I would build one now for SSB and be one of those IT(S?) guys with 10yrs of experience on a chassis.

The gamble is that I think it's lap times could be in the R range but from every measure of factory horsepower, weight, and tech adders it seems to me it should be an S car like the miata. I would hate for it to be a slow R car but I think it could inject new life into S as long as it carries enough weight to stay in reach of the RX7s.

The thing that SSB has proven is that the car carries weight well so a heavy weight in S might be more appropriate than a featherweight R. If someone could guarantee right now where this car will end up I would be on ebay tomorrow.

Alex

[tnord]

speaking of SSB cars....where did all the miata's go? buyers are having a hard time finding them, maybe they really aren't out there?

i'm trying to figure out timeline for a standard distribution life cycle for IT classes. if you could say that ITC is on it's last legs, how long ago did it show up? if ITA is at it's peak, how long ago was it created? are the best years for ITS yet to come? are these even really relevant questions with the great realignment not far behind us?

[Andy Bettencourt]

ITSolstice sure sounds better than ITRolstice. I am eagerly awaiting the classification of this car when it's time comes. If I were a better gambler I would build one now for SSB and be one of those IT(S?) guys with 10yrs of experience on a chassis.

The gamble is that I think it's lap times could be in the R range but from every measure of factory horsepower, weight, and tech adders it seems to me it should be an S car like the miata. I would hate for it to be a slow R car but I think it could inject new life into S as long as it carries enough weight to stay in reach of the RX7s.

The thing that SSB has proven is that the car carries weight well so a heavy weight in S might be more appropriate than a featherweight R. If someone could guarantee right now where this car will end up I would be on ebay tomorrow.

Alex

Napkin math shows a 170hp RWD car with no adders would be about 2740 in ITS. 2390 in ITR. Knowing what I know about our MX-5 Koni-Challenge car, it ain't getting to 2210ish without driver - no way in heck. I would think the Solstice is more of a pig...

[tnord]

2740 seems like a good ITS weight for that car. sure look like they'd be fun to draft off of in a miata.

[Doc Bro]

ITA as a Miata class depends on your definition of 'predominantly'. Of those 8 Rob speeks of (of 20) 6 are pure SM's double dipping. So in reality, only 2 are real ITA cars. Interestingly, there are just as many Escort GT's (2) and Z3's (2) as 'real' ITA Miata's in that race.

Doesn't matter if they are "real" ITA cars. If they are in the class in the race then they are ITA, and they add to the car counts (thankfully). The question was what does the landscape of IT look like in the future? The car counts prove this to be true, and the car counts don't take into account real or "fake". It IS the most popular ITA car and will continue to be. It's not a bad thing at all. It just is what it is. Saying the "real" ITA Miata's are as popular as the Escort GT or Z3 is a bit of a stretch. Is Cefalo's ITA Miata(the one that destroyed the competition at the Glen) a "real ITA" Miata?

R

[Andy Bettencourt]

Doesn't matter if they are "real" ITA cars. If they are in the class in the race then they are ITA, and they add to the car counts (thankfully). The question was what does the landscape of IT look like in the future? The car counts prove this to be true, and the car counts don't take into account real or "fake". It IS the most popular ITA car and will continue to be. It's not a bad thing at all. It just is what it is. Saying the "real" ITA Miata's are as popular as the Escort GT or Z3 is a bit of a stretch. Is Cefalo's ITA Miata(the one that destroyed the competition at the Glen) a "real ITA" Miata?

R

If you mean the 'SM' with Goodyears that won at the Glen, then no it's not a 'real' ITA Miata. You will notice he was 'only' 2 seconds off the ITA track record. (Edit: Branscome had fast lap Sunday)

My point was that the double-dipping SM's shouldn't be counted in 'what is popular in ITA' because it's only an opportunistic count. In some regions, SM and ITA run together eliminating those cars from the entry list altogether. Miatas built specifically for ITA are relitively rare compared to HondAcuras.

[Doc Bro]

If you mean the 'SM' with Goodyears that won at the Glen, then no it's not a 'real' ITA Miata. You will notice he was 'only' 2 seconds off the ITA track record. (Edit: Branscome had fast lap Sunday)

My point was that the double-dipping SM's shouldn't be counted in 'what is popular in ITA' because it's only an opportunistic count. In some regions, SM and ITA run together eliminating those cars from the entry list altogether. Miatas built specifically for ITA are relitively rare compared to HondAcuras.

So if I get beat by say, Gorrorrian in his "double-dipping" "not real" ITA Miata do I get to not count that? Do I get his trophy or points? Does Cefalo's win over Joe and Jeff not count then? Pete and Darrell run VERY competetive ITA times in their (S)SM's.

If they are in the class in that race then they ARE ITA. The prep level is not the question. It adds to the car counts and it adds to the Miata count. The question was; What will ITA/S look like in the future? My answer was predominantly Miata....it already is. Undebatable.

I'm not trying to by argumentative or anti-Miata. I just don't see how you can argue this fact.

To a spectator on the hill ITA will look like mostly a Miata class in the fuutre. Is that better?

R

[Andy Bettencourt]

Whatever Rob. The question is 'what will the landscape of ITA look like in a few years?' from a broad stroke. Double dipping Miata from SM work someplaces, and don't work others. Assuming Trav is talking about potential pointy-enders, SM's don't weigh in on what to look for or how the 'competitive' lanscape with shape up. Heck, SM might have a rule change that puts them outside the ITA box in terms of what is acceptable for resonable corssover and be gone completely. To 'bank' on something like that isn't a good idea. Trav is trying to make sure the class he builds a car for is stable, strong and viable for the future - hense my assertion it isn't a 'Miata class'. It's actually a 'Honda class' IMO. We are just looking at it from different angles. Trav can pick through our babble and decide how it pertains to his patch.

If you are getting beat in ITA by SM's, well, that is a whole 'nother thread.

[tnord]

Whatever Rob. The question is 'what will the landscape of ITA look like in a few years?' from a broad stroke. Double dipping Miata from SM work someplaces, and don't work others. Assuming Trav is talking about potential pointy-enders, SM's don't weigh in on what to look for or how the 'competitive' lanscape with shape up. Heck, SM might have a rule change that puts them outside the ITA box in terms of what is acceptable for resonable corssover and be gone completely. To 'bank' on something like that isn't a good idea. Trav is trying to make sure the class he builds a car for is stable, strong and viable for the future - hense my assertion it isn't a 'Miata class'. It's actually a 'Honda class' IMO. We are just looking at it from different angles. Trav can pick through our babble and decide how it pertains to his patch.

If you are getting beat in ITA by SM's, well, that is a whole 'nother thread.

winner!

of course, andy does have a little inside information as to what's going on here, so it wasn't quite a fair fight.

it took only three years for SM to run it's course once it went National, and if the tire rule stays the way it is, i have very little interest in it anymore. yes, predicting the future is VERY difficult, but it's what i'm trying to do. my bet? IT goes National in three years, and the game changes just as it did in SM. when that happens....i want to know what the class looks like.

are we now going to be allowing TC/ABS? what cars are on the horizon that might be coming in with a lot of support and strong following? has IT become more popular and MORE competitive? or with national will it become less popular and more competitive (the worst case scenario)?

well, if SCCA finally gets the balls to eliminate the dead classes or consolidate a bunch as they had proposed a few months ago, i think IT gets both more competitive and popular. bigger fields and better cars at the front is great for both those on the outside watching, and those on the inside playing. taking a look at what our rule structure will look like gives a little window of insight into the costs to be relatively competitive.

i think allowing TC/ABS raises that, because combined with the open ECU rule it's going to take a whole lot of tuning that i'm not sure how you develop (dyno doesn't work) to get an advantage from those systems. now, the faster the class you choose the bigger benefit there will be as a 250whp ITR 300ZX can use a good TC program a lot more than a 125whp ITA CRX. so i think the "slope" on the competitiveness/cost graph increases the farther up you move in the IT speed ranks, making ITA the better choice, but.....

as was mentioned earlier, how long of a shelf life does ITA have? has it reached it's peak of popularity and will slowly wane as those cars age, tubs rust, and parts become more scarce? ITS looks good on the level that i think it's still growing in popularity, which bodes well for resale in the 3-5yr timeframe.

[esuvee]

Napkin math shows a 170hp RWD car with no adders would be about 2740 in ITS. 2390 in ITR. Knowing what I know about our MX-5 Koni-Challenge car, it ain't getting to 2210ish without driver - no way in heck. I would think the Solstice is more of a pig...

I think a 27XXlb solstice would be a quick car. It runs a 1:51.X at HPT in SSB trim (3050lbs) and I think a mid 1:50 is a good ITS time (a little hard to find times for some reason). Plus, there should be plenty of old SSB cars around when the time comes.

Alex

[tnord]

I think a 27XXlb solstice would be a quick car. It runs a 1:51.X at HPT in SSB trim (3050lbs) and I think a mid 1:50 is a good ITS time (a little hard to find times for some reason). Plus, there should be plenty of old SSB cars around when the time comes.

Alex

low 50's is a good SM time (iirc pole last year was around a 51.9, and they were doing 53/54's last weekend. a good ITA time would be in the 50's or lower, i would think putting ITS times around 45-47.

[robits325is]

Napkin math shows a 170hp RWD car with no adders would be about 2740 in ITS. 2390 in ITR. Knowing what I know about our MX-5 Koni-Challenge car, it ain't getting to 2210ish without driver - no way in heck. I would think the Solstice is more of a pig...

I wish my 170hp RWD car was 2740....

Where can I find this list of adders?

[esuvee]

low 50's is a good SM time (iirc pole last year was around a 51.9, and they were doing 53/54's last weekend.

I was refering to 'mid 1:50's' as 1:50.5 rather than 1:55's but it still sounds like that's a couple seconds slower than ITS may actually run. Either way, I imagine there's a few seconds between a 3050lb SSB car and a 27XXlb IT prepped car. Maybe I should look at how other SSB cars transitioned to IT.

Thanks,
Alex

[JeffYoung]

You probably get a 35% power increase percentage v. 25% for the Solistice, plus 100 lbs for torque and maybe 100 more for suspension (aren't E-46s A-arm all around?)

Based on what Irish Mike does with his at Daytona, Sebring and Roebling, I'd say the ITAC got the weight on the 323 correct.

I wish my 170hp RWD car was 2740....

Where can I find this list of adders?

[lateapex911]

You probably get a 35% power increase percentage v. 25% for the Solistice, plus 100 lbs for torque and maybe 100 more for suspension (aren't E-46s A-arm all around?)

Based on what Irish Mike does with his at Daytona, Sebring and Roebling, I'd say the ITAC got the weight on the 323 correct.

Yea, that car (the model, not only Mike's) is a great car. It's on my "medium list" for cars to run post RX-7. Watching it sort out now.

[lateapex911]

Travis has an interesting angle on this, and is looking at history to guide him, among other things. One thing I'd toss in there is that we've thought of ITC as "dead" for awhile now, but the numbers are steady. low, but pretty steady, I think.

But ITB seems to be experiencing a resurgence.

I'd like opinions as to why on that one....

[tnord]

I'm sure you know what a standard bell curve looks like, which would indicate there will be a fairly steady # of ITC cars over a long period of time....but still slowly declining. I think ITA is probably just on either side of the peak, ITS climbing, and ITR still in the "2 std dev from the mean" category. ITR will have the longest useful life given it's stage of the cycle, but is still big $ to enter.

i think the ITB resurgance can be directly related to the realignment....and at risk of being insulting.....because SOME people thought ITB was ripe for the picking, though the overwhelming driver behind the resurgance was the realignment.

the resurgance of IT as a whole is primarily driven by the realignment, and i don't think ITB is any different.

[JeffYoung]

I agree. ITB is thriving because there are a number of chassis that can compete in it, after realignment.

I didn't expect it either, but good to see.