LRP lap times old vs. new

[Andy Bettencourt]

I always thought that Flatout built your own engines. Guess not?

We did some SM motors this past winter but realized its too much trouble. We don't do machining or anyting so it was just assembly. My bad luck this year had to do with a bad ground believe it or not.

We do the rotories but you can't do anything internally to them and no machining is needed.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Jeff you've missed it all. Have another sip of the cool-aid. Come up to the NER and say that those ITS and ITR cars are underprepped.

Andy, it's not about me getting in your car, it's about good drivers getting in your car. Are you saying thart you'll spin faster laps in your car than Gorrorian will? No one has mentioned how an 8 (or 9) 10ths car can run with 10/10ths ITR and ITS cars regardless of tracks. I just don't buy it. Believe what you want I really don't care because I'm out but, if a legal 8/10ths Miata can do that the let me introduce you to the next class killer.

No black helicopters, no sky is falling, it's just a bunch of facts. Look at them for what they are.

R

I tried to explain to you how the numbers made sense - and can only think that those guys had an off day. I don't know why they didn't run any faster than they every have while many classes set track records that day. How do you explain that?

Maybe Dave Maynard can tell us how much work is done to his engine - including the ECU and dyno tuning they have into it...if you really want to find out what is 10/10ths. He wheels the hell outta that car but I don't think it makes near the power of a Dan Jones level build. I could be (and have been) wrong. Just my gut based on when he was in ITS.

(On edit) Your question about Gorriaran exemplifies my point. Trying to quantify the driver equation is impossible. Take the best driver you know and put you and he in identically prepped cars. You then have some data to work with. Without knowing how much better anyone is than anyone else, you can't say with any confidence that a car is an overdog - especially given a new track surface, a 45 minute race, one driver that holds the track record for the class vs. others from another class that do not etc. It's just not possible - especially when that car/driver doesn't stack up to any other track records in the area. DO I think I can get them? You bet, but the investment in the car and the driver is never ending in order to do so.

[Doc Bro]

I tried to explain to you how the numbers made sense - and can only think that those guys had an off day. I don't know why they didn't run any faster than they every have while many classes set track records that day. How do you explain that?

Maybe Dave Maynard can tell us how much work is done to his engine - including the ECU and dyno tuning they have into it...if you really want to find out what is 10/10ths. He wheels the hell outta that car but I don't think it makes near the power of a Dan Jones level build. I could be (and have been) wrong. Just my gut based on when he was in ITS.

(On edit) Your question about Gorriaran exemplifies my point. Trying to quantify the driver equation is impossible. Take the best driver you know and put you and he in identically prepped cars. You then have some data to work with. Without knowing how much better anyone is than anyone else, you can't say with any confidence that a car is an overdog - especially given a new track surface, a 45 minute race, one driver that holds the track record for the class vs. others from another class that do not etc. It's just not possible - especially when that car/driver doesn't stack up to any other track records in the area. DO I think I can get them? You bet, but the investment in the car and the driver is never ending in order to do so.

As I expected refocus the arguement. "I was fast ...they all had an off day. I don't know how to explain it.....but I was +60# and on bad tires and -15whp,...but my off day wasn't as bad as all of the ITS field's off day." Uhhh huh. Sure.


It's not about Dave's car. It's about how an 8/10ths Miata runs faster than 10/10ths ITS cars and 10/10ths ITR cars. It's not about Dan Jones's car. Maybe he get's more air through his M3 bumper I don't know or care. I know what I see and what are facts. The facts are the facts.

My point about Gorrorian was to prove you wrong. You offered your car and stopwatch to me. I just substituted the driver. Let's do it. If it's not the car then it must be the driver...are you THAT good?

R

[Andy Bettencourt]

As I expected refocus the arguement. "I was fast ...they all had an off day. I don't know how to explain it.....but I was +60# and on bad tires and -15whp,...but my off day wasn't as bad as all of the ITS field's off day." Uhhh huh. Sure.


It's not about Dave's car. It's about how an 8/10ths Miata runs faster than 10/10ths ITS cars and 10/10ths ITR cars. It's not about Dan Jones's car. Maybe he get's more air through his M3 bumper I don't know or care. I know what I see and what are facts. The facts are the facts.

My point about Gorrorian was to prove you wrong. You offered your car and stopwatch to me. I just substituted the driver. Let's do it. If it's not the car then it must be the driver...are you THAT good?

R

Well, it IS about Dave's car if you want to claim it's 10/10ths. I am summarily disputing that assertaion. The only other cars in the race that I suppose you are comparing me to are the Autotechnic cars. Hendo started from the back of the pack so I am not sure how valid his race results are other than he made it all the way up to 4th...if Jeff Harding was there and he wiped the track with all of us and ran 1:00.5, what would you say then? The RX-7 needs weight or HIS car 'could be' illegal? He is after all, the fastest ITS car around LRP currently.

I still haven't heard from you why you think those guys didn't run any faster than they have in the past giving consideration for the new surface when so many ran personal bests and 3 track records were set in our run group alone..Oh ya - 13 track records were set in other classes that day. THIRTEEN for a total of 16 new track records. Care to weigh in on that? I still say my lap times hold water given a new track and all the records set. You say my laps and results are the anomoly...I think it's the cars you are using to compare that seem to be in the minority - you know - FACTS?

I will let anyone drive my car if they want to prove they are better than me - or risk an shot to their ego. As in ANYTHING, there is always someone better than you, me, whoever.

I just think you are being foolish to look at these results, claim to know the 'facts', not take into account the track-friendly nature of the course, and them summarily claim the car needs lead.

I think you are looking at the deal in a very narrow way, a way we have almost all universally agreed is dangerous, if not stupid - singular race results when many things can't be quantified. We will agree to disagree.

(Edit) Love how you slip in the 'bad tire' comment. They were 'sticker' R6's. Didn't like the 'feel' as much as the Goodyears but to infer they were less than optimal is disingenous at best.

[gran racing]

Since we're talking old vs. new....

I was there last Wednesday and absolutely noticed changes in the track. I found it a bit difficult since I used to track out pretty far after big bend, the turn onto no name and west bend. On the new track my car got very loose when doing that. While the pavement was faster, those changes will take some getting adjusted to. Could be the same things others were facing too. My lap times? For the most part they were in the 1:07s and my best was a 1:05 flat. Nothing great, although I'm hoping it is due to my tweeked rear suspension but more likely a lack of guts.

[ulfelder]

It's not about Dave's car. It's about how an 8/10ths Miata runs faster than 10/10ths ITS cars and 10/10ths ITR cars.

R

I've followed this thread from an ITS point of view. Rob, you just cannot call the Autotechnics and Maynard cars 10/10ths on that particular day. I saw Dave and Driscoll up ahead, and was right on Henderson's bumper for awhile, and it was obvious everybody was leaving lots on the table, as was I - Driscoll has said he was very loose, Hendo looked the same, I think everybody was tapping the brakes for the Diving Turn (not necessary when everything's just right), and we usually had plenty of trackout left over. The reasons are pretty clear, aren't they?

• New surface
• At most one test day, and most of us were seeing the track for the first time
• Wet qual
• 45-minute race
• Jeff Harding wasn't there, which (let's face it) took some pressure off everybody

To give you some idea just how much was left on the table, Matt Rooke and I each ran our fast lap of the race (1:01.8/1:01.9) on the next to last lap. That's a pretty good indicator that guys were figuring out the track as the race progressed.

The ITS & ITR guys mentioned are all faster than me, and they know this isn't a slam; it's just that on a given track on a given day, a given class will run its own pace, and it's a sucker bet to make sweeping generalizations in such a case.

When the NARCCoffs roll around, expect very low 1:00s/high 59s from Harding, Autotechnic, and Maynard.

Steve Ulfelder
Flatout Motorsports
05 ITS

[robits325is]

Legality and driver talent aside, there is no way to make a Z3 1.9 as fast as an ITS or ITR 6 cylinder. I understand Rob"s frustration. Everyone wants a fair shot at winning.

[Tkczecheredflag]

You The beauty is that an Integra did it before me and a CRX before that...
...

Sorry for my ignorance AB - Did what?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Sorry for my ignorance AB - Did what?

Had individual races where they ran competitively with cars from faster clases. Remember the OMP Challenge? Serra - Blaney, etc.

[Doc Bro]

[quote=Andy Bettencourt;271800]Well, it IS about Dave's car if you want to claim it's 10/10ths. I am summarily disputing that assertaion. The only other cars in the race that I suppose you are comparing me to are the Autotechnic cars. Hendo started from the back of the pack so I am not sure how valid his race results are other than he made it all the way up to 4th...if Jeff Harding was there and he wiped the track with all of us and ran 1:00.5, what would you say then? The RX-7 needs weight or HIS car 'could be' illegal? He is after all, the fastest ITS car around LRP currently.

I still haven't heard from you why you think those guys didn't run any faster than they have in the past giving consideration for the new surface when so many ran personal bests and 3 track records were set in our run group alone..Oh ya - 13 track records were set in other classes that day. THIRTEEN for a total of 16 new track records. Care to weigh in on that? I still say my lap times hold water given a new track and all the records set. You say my laps and results are the anomoly...I think it's the cars you are using to compare that seem to be in the minority - you know - FACTS?

I will let anyone drive my car if they want to prove they are better than me - or risk an shot to their ego. As in ANYTHING, there is always someone better than you, me, whoever.

I just think you are being foolish to look at these results, claim to know the 'facts', not take into account the track-friendly nature of the course, and them summarily claim the car needs lead.

I think you are looking at the deal in a very narrow way, a way we have almost all universally agreed is dangerous, if not stupid - singular race results when many things can't be quantified. We will agree to disagree.

(Edit) Love how you slip in the 'bad tire' comment. They were 'sticker' R6's. Didn't like the 'feel' as much as the Goodyears but to infer they were less than optimal is disingenous at best.[/

Here we go again.....questioning their cars to refocus the discussion away from the facts you reported.

My "stupid" view on this subject should play out handsomely when your 8/10ths car dominates at NHIS thisweekend. It'll be interesting to compare your ITA lap times with ITS/R. Will your excuse for your NHIS performance be that the car is now 10/10ths? I apologize for the tire comment, it wasn't disengeuous, don't question my integrity....you were the one bellyaching about them.


Again did Serra and Blaney do that with their post-lead steeds??
R

[Andy Bettencourt]

Here we go again.....questioning their cars to refocus the discussion away from the facts you reported.

My "stupid" view on this subject should play out handsomely when your 8/10ths car dominates at NHIS thisweekend. It'll be interesting to compare your ITA lap times with ITS/R. Will your excuse for your NHIS performance be that the car is now 10/10ths? I apologize for the tire comment, it wasn't disengeuous, don't question my integrity....you were the one bellyaching about them.


Again did Serra and Blaney do that with their post-lead steeds??
R

What I am trying to get across to you is that almost everyone was faster on the new surface. Why wern't the two cars you hold up as the gold standard? It is FACT that THEY were the anomoly, not me. My numbers make sense, not theirs. 16 track records set that day. I know why *I* didn't go faster.

As far as NHMS goes, you of course know that no ITA car has even sniffed within 1.5 seconds of the ITS track record. Not Greg, not me, not Serra etc. And it's wonderful that you predict a domination when there is no Joe, no Greg, no Hunter etc. to race against. Guess when I win, I don't really win.

On the tires, you now hear what you want to hear. I told you I thought they felt greasy and were not as stable as the Goodyears...but after talking with other drivers, everyone felt the track showed those charateristics to some extent. So in impound I when I thought the tires didn't feel good, I had the ability to seperate what I felt and learn that I was not alone.

My car won't be 10/10ths for a while, maybe not all next year. No money for a new motor. Enjoy it while she is soft.

We won't agree on this so make your last point/take your last shot and I will be satisfied to let it die.

[Ed Funk]

Ed, the great thing about ITC at the pro IT was A) you Won and you only could get your own panties in a bunch!!! lol Actually we have listened to some interesting data in all the classes except ITC, how did you find the track??? Faster?

Raymond "Great thing about ITB/ITC (and ITS/ITR I guess) is that none of us currently are wearing panties to get in a bunch..." Blethen

PS: Ed we still have your extra tie downs... Will you be at the RAL weekend? I will be stewarding and will try to remember them. otherwise they are in the trailer if you see it at any racesstop over and greab them if we forget to go to you!!!

Raymond, I should have gone faster at LRP on the 2nd, my personal goal was to break the itc record of 4.9, but for a variety of reasons that was not to be. I hadn't been there in 2 years (and LRP more so than any of the other 12-14 tracks I've driven pays big dividends to those with practice), I didn't have enough rear roll stifness dialed in so the car pushed everywhere, traffic was a bitch (especially for the slowest class OCIC), I was making an effort to stay out of the way, and my biggest personal problem---I couldn't find my turn-in and therefore the apex at westbend.

I did go 1/2 sec faster than my personal best, but still 1/2 sec slower than the record. I think I can get another 1 sec, with practice, set-up, and good conditions. Steph probably is not going to let me run the NARRC offs because in '05 and '06 her car came home in pieces! So that record may go to some one else. As our cars are probably going to become itb's with the VIN rule change, and I'm still debating joining the ita circus.

The reason that I think the faster classes will have bigger gains on the records is that a bumpy track causes more trouble for a car with power getting it down. "C" cars are not famous for power! I think of the throttle as being an on/off switch! Which causes me on occasion to doubt whether it's wise thinking about an "A" car, I'll have to learn throttle modulation!

And, yes we'll be at RAL, so will collect the tie downs.

[Doc Bro]

What I am trying to get across to you is that almost everyone was faster on the new surface. Why wern't the two cars you hold up as the gold standard? It is FACT that THEY were the anomoly, not me. My numbers make sense, not theirs. 16 track records set that day. I know why *I* didn't go faster.

As far as NHMS goes, you of course know that no ITA car has even sniffed within 1.5 seconds of the ITS track record. Not Greg, not me, not Serra etc. And it's wonderful that you predict a domination when there is no Joe, no Greg, no Hunter etc. to race against. Guess when I win, I don't really win.

On the tires, you now hear what you want to hear. I told you I thought they felt greasy and were not as stable as the Goodyears...but after talking with other drivers, everyone felt the track showed those charateristics to some extent. So in impound I when I thought the tires didn't feel good, I had the ability to seperate what I felt and learn that I was not alone.

My car won't be 10/10ths for a while, maybe not all next year. No money for a new motor. Enjoy it while she is soft.

We won't agree on this so make your last point/take your last shot and I will be satisfied to let it die.

No jabs, or shots. It's not about you- it's about how an 8/10ths car can do that. When I wrote my leter to the ITAC a year ago about the weight of the Z3 the summation [by you] was the car was only 8/10ths. Hmmmm....

I used the whole ITS field as the gold standard, not just a lone car.

The NHIS prediction accounts for Lawton....unarguably a 10/10ths car, and Branscombe who has Serra power and 3 wins for the season. Oh yeah... definite slouches there!

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. I will always believe that the car is classed light. You'll never convince me otherwise. I don't need the formula thrown at me, I don't care. Call it the next 'teg or CRX. And from the PM's I've gotten I'm not the only one.....


R

[BruceG]

I agree with both Dave and Andy regarding the new surface and tires.Formula Skip Barbers with BF Goodrich ga/force radials yielded quite different results in turns 1,2 and 3 betwen May and the new surface
on July 7th. One of my racing classmates from April racing school expressed the same feeling after driving with me on July 7th. We were taught to take a high line in turn 3 and the cars felt loose compared to the old surface on that line.

Regards,

BruceG

[Andy Bettencourt]

I will always believe that the car is classed light. You'll never convince me otherwise. I don't need the formula thrown at me, I don't care. R

So what should it weigh and why?

[dominojd]

#2485

[dominojd]

Couldn't resist.

[Tkczecheredflag]

#2620
HP is the same as my teg, why is the weight different again?

[Andy Bettencourt]

#2620
HP is the same as my teg, why is the weight different again?

Huh? 128hp vs. 140hp?

[dominojd]

#2620
HP is the same as my teg, why is the weight different again?

Ok I'll up you one how's about #2711?