LRP lap times old vs. new

[Tkczecheredflag]

Huh? 128hp vs. 140hp?

AB - You're stating that you could realize 140ish numbers. We're not seeing hp gains north of 145 hp on a legal engine build. I know I should know more about the weight and class process but I'm listening if you care to walk me though it again.

I guess I'm sayin' if we can both get to a similiar HP numbers, shouldn't we be closer in weight? Maybe that's too simple minded on my part but I'm listening again.

[Greg Amy]

Huh? 133hp vs. 140hp?

Fixed.

Just sayin'...

[dominojd]

What are we talkin here? Stock HP #'s at the crank?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Tim,

We can't race dyno's. I quote my dynojet numbers. I would be happy to put your car on our dyno to make a solid comparision at my cost. Judging by what your car does to mine on starts, we ain't making near the same hp...and if it's Serra's stuff, I GUARANTEE it ain't even close.

Greg, sorry - mine's a 94 so it's 128hp.

Why don't you guys just build one of these overdogs and be done with it? Lord knows they are winning all over the country after 3 years. Not.

Done.

[dominojd]

Why don't you guys just build one of these overdogs and be done with it?

Because Miata's are gay.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Because Miata's are gay.

Tell me something I DON'T know....

[Tkczecheredflag]

Tim,

We can't race dyno's. I quote my dynojet numbers. I would be happy to put your car on our dyno to make a solid comparision at my cost. Judging by what your car does to mine on starts, we ain't making near the same hp...and if it's Serra's stuff, I GUARANTEE it ain't even close.

Done.

AB - I am happy to share my dyno sheets with you and would welcome time on your dyno too - We can discuss off line if you'd like.

As far as the "starts" go - though I don't fall into the Serra, Bettencourt, Hunter, Blaney "great driver" category - I've alway considered myself a very good starter - Driver/Starter vs HP Maybe. While you guys are spending all you time on the dyno, I work on hand/foot and eye coordination, for hours daily - really.

Re- the overdogs - I like the Miata - I struggle gettin' my big butt in and out - reminds me of the CRX - scary.

[JLawton]

Tell me something I DON'T know....

I thought you were done?? In fact, that's the SECOND time you've said that in this thread!! (but you gotta admit, Joe is funny!!)


You are very passionate about this topic (and I can respect that. You'd make a great super hero) but you MUST realize by now that you're hitting your head against a wall trying to convince EVERYONE that it's classed right. Even monkeys learn after the first time!! (damn, I crack myself up!!) Let it goooooooooooooooooo.


in regards to building one. You'll see the Saturn for sale some time in the near future......

[Greg Amy]

Greg, sorry - mine's a 94 so it's 128hp.

1994 and 1995 Miata are on the same spec line. 1995 Miatas are rated at 133 horsepower. Ergo, both cars, if on the same line, should go through "the process" at 133 horsepower.

And before you "go there" again: if we're going to give horsepower "credit" for cars where the factory has done things "towards" IT-spec changes, then we need to do it fairly and across the board. Let's "credit" the Integra for Acura's good work on that engine, and let's "debit" the NX2000 for Nissan's crappy work there. Because "what's good for the goose..."

And (to address your next defense) if the 1994 and 1995 Miata were classed on separate lines, and the 1995 was classified at 2485# - which in all fairness it should be - then the 1994 Miata, once proven to be the overdog that it is, would eventually get that same 2485# and we'd be back to the same end. But, as it stands now, you (plural Miata drivers "you") get to burn your candles at both ends without injury.

That is inequitable.

The Miata is an overdog. Plain and simple. I really do like 'em, it's a wonderful car; just like the E36, it's a car that's truly worth more than the sum of its parts. The very fact that a full-up Spec Miata - probably a 8/10s prep IT car, if even that once you consider the suspension, engine, and tire differences - can be reasonably competitive in ITA is proof of that.

Want to stop the bitching? Follow your own process, the one you both simultaneously praise and hide behind, and put the Miata at 2485#, which is the weight it would have using a horsepower rating of 133. The car will STILL be extremely competitive and then you can truly hide behind "the process" without appearance of hypocrisy.

Really, "just sayin'". - GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

1994 and 1995 Miata are on the same spec line. 1995 Miatas are rated at 133 horsepower. Ergo, both cars, if on the same line, should go through "the process" at 133 horsepower.

And before you "go there" again: if we're going to give horsepower "credit" for cars where the factory has done things "towards" IT-spec changes, then we need to do it fairly and across the board. Let's "credit" the Integra for Acura's good work on that engine, and let's "debit" the NX2000 for Nissan's crappy work there. Because "what's good for the goose..."

And (to address your next defense) if the 1994 and 1995 Miata were classed on separate lines, and the 1995 was classified at 2485# - which in all fairness it should be - then the 1994 Miata, once proven to be the overdog that it is, would eventually get that same 2485# and we'd be back to the same end. But, as it stands now, you (plural Miata drivers "you") get to burn your candles at both ends without injury.

That is inequitable.

The Miata is an overdog. Plain and simple. I really do like 'em, it's a wonderful car; just like the E36, it's a car that's truly worth more than the sum of its parts. The very fact that a full-up Spec Miata - probably a 8/10s prep IT car, if even that once you consider the suspension, engine, and tire differences - can be reasonably competitive in ITA is proof of that.

Want to stop the bitching? Follow your own process, the one you both simultaneously praise and hide behind, and put the Miata at 2485#, which is the weight it would have using a horsepower rating of 133. The car will STILL be extremely competitive and then you can truly hide behind "the process" without appearance of hypocrisy.

Really, "just sayin'". - GA

It's like crack - I can't stop. Actually, factual errors bother me (and for the noobs):

Greg - got your years wrong. The 94-95 car was 128hp. The 96-97 car was 133. As you know, the early car was classed first. The later car was requested and classed. There were 3 choices.

1. Class the 96-97 car using 133hp on a seperate line
2. Combine the two at the higher weight
3. Combine the two at the lower weight

Option 3 was chosen because the motors didn't change. Only a simple Swap from OBD-1 to OBD-2 ECU's netted the extra 5 hp rating. Since an ECU allowance was allowed and the early car was already classed, it was decided to go with option 3. The cars have the EXACT same potential in IT trim as you know. A decision I would stand behind in any situation in the future with any other car. And as most of you know, we have been over and over this.

There is no precident in the 'process' for something like this. If anything, seperating them would be the 'perfect' thing to do because of the different hp ratings. Given their potential in IT trim, nobody would build one (a 96-97) but that is neither here nor there.

So in the end - the cars should be on seperate lines, nobody runs a 96-97 because it makes NO sense and you have to wait until a PCA corrects the 'more than the sum of it's parts' error...should it ever arise...and given the CRX's dominance at big events, I fail to see a groundswell of support.

The ITAC took into account the facts and made a decision on the combination. I would support a seperation of the spec lines...but with the removal of the VIN rule...anyone with a 96-97 swaps out the wiring harness and changes the year on their reg form...

Just sayin'.

[dpc]

You know this post is getting old when GA posts something positive about a Miata.......dave

[Greg Amy]

You know this post is getting old when GA posts something positive about a Miata...

Hey, Ta-tas are good cars, no doubt...if they weren't, no one would give two snots about what weight there were classified at...

[CRallo]

I will let anyone drive my car if they want to prove they are better than me - or risk an shot to their ego. As in ANYTHING, there is always someone better than you, me, whoever.

Hey Andy: Anyone? also, you should sandbag a lil bit, then you wouldn't hurt everyone's feelings as much and then they would not bitch so much that said overdog or not: being slower than the last overdog(so far) does not mean you are not an overdog...

that said,
i dunno who's a better driver than who but I do know that the ProIT race had some of the best racing and much of the best driving of the weekend. It's amazing what some of the guys get away with that drive the fast cars just because they have the hp to power around the track...

[StephF]

Because Miata's are gay.

Jesus Christ Joe! Give us some warning before you do that! I just ruined my keyboard!

[dominojd]

Jesus Christ Joe! Give us some warning before you do that! I just ruined my keyboard!

I have that effect on people. I think Jake spit OJ on his keyboard at some point. Next time I will post a warning.

"Beware comment may cause liquids to spew from your mouth or nose."

[schris892]

I believe this is my first post, however I have watched scca club racing for years. Alot of cars are too fast. It makes no sense why you have to cheat and run alone. Andy was always a mid pack racer in its, however in ita he beats the its cars with his stock miata. Lots of other cars are extremely to fast as well, all you have to do is watch one event and pick them out. What is the fun if no one is around to race with. If you are out front winning your car should be built to the wall with every part available, not 60 pounds over and -15 hp.

Kurt

[JLawton]

Oh...........my.............god!!!

[7racing]

I have no dog in this fight and not to defend nor attack anyone.....

My Nissan 240sx qualified on the pole for an ITS/ITA NARRC race on a drying track at LRP a couple years ago. This was against Maynard and a few of the other shoes in ITS. Sometimes, it comes down to driver vs. driver. (Most of the fast ITS cars beat me into turn 1 at the start, BTW....I do have some cool pictures of that!) It sounds like "the fast guys" weren't at LRP for Andy's big adventure, so this one particular race might not be the one to question him on (I mean, there are so many others.....)

I now return you to such fun activities as "Miata Bashing" and "What would TheGA do?".

[schris892]

I am not miata bashing. Many other cars in the series are much faster then the other cars in that same class. The ITA miata is one example. It may be unfair advantages in classification or the driver may be better. Either way that car is fast and I was voicing my opinion. Its the same as Dan Jone's car. He fires up the car and just by listening it does not sound legal. If he believes it is, while that is purely fiction on his part. He is offline and sliding around as the car pulls ten cars down the straight away.

Kurt

[JeffYoung]

Kurt, don't know you, but probably not a good idea to come on here and in your first couple of posts start accusing folks of illegality.

I've raced with ITA and ITS Miatas. I've seen ITA Miatas in the SEDiv win "overall" against good S cars at certain tracks, and I've seen them get beat pretty handily at others. I certainly don't see an overdog like with the E36 325. I see a car that when prepped to the max and driven to the max wins. Just like Integras and NX2000s and CRXes and 240sxes.

If the Miata is at process weight, then that's really end of story.