2008 ARRC by GRM Tentative Schedule

[svt38]

As an ITC racer, I am not a big fan of putting SM’s with ITB/C either. I for one have over the years looked forward to the “ARRC Championship Race” without having to run with the SM’s. IMO it takes away from the event status as a Championship event. Butch, I would ask you to consider leaving all the SM’s in the same group like last year.

Also, about split starts. Before the event there is always talk about them, but when we request for one during the weekend they seldom materialize. We have gotten these unsafe split grid jobs a few times. Would it possible to have them published in advance?

Note: I believe the ITC Lap record is 1:49.578
http://www.arrc-online.com/results_2007/Gp3RACE.pdf

[IPRESS]

Butch, in the spirit of the car share (which I have done since 2000 at ARRC), Do you think the ITA cars which seems to be a pretty large group might do some SSM /ASM type share between ITA / ITU? Is that even legal? I know last year ITU could have used some more entries and just guessing an "A" car could run close at least by those times above.
If that is a legit option moving that run group to last would give a little turn arounf for both ASM / SSM and ITU / ITA racers working the share angle.

Whatever you get worked out some of us will like and some will not, so it ain't a biggie.
It still will be the top IT event of the year.

[Beran]

I agree with everything Jake said.
I'd also like to point to your post:
"Group 1 - 41.7 cars
ITB - 16.3 (1:46.126) <---------
ITC - 10.7 (1:47.978)
ITT - 3.7 (1:51.157
SRX - 4.0 (1:50.127)
SSM - 7.0 (1:46.124) <---------

The ITB & SSM lap record are within 2 thousands of a second. Rear wheel versus front wheel will make both the SSM and ITB race basically one big race. Both classes will be racing against cars in thier class AND the other class. This is frustrating and not fun.
IMHO Miata's CAN go to the Runoff's and compete nationaly..... at this point IT cannot and THIS is the location for that. If you put us in the same group then this is NOT the location and race for a "National" IT event. A split start will help but one double yellow will crush that. I know "we" need the Miata folks for the $$$ to keep the event viable but let's still keep some semblance of an IT event.
YMMV

[Butch Kummer]

Now that Barber is behind us I'll work on finalizing the ARRC schedule, but the outpouring of emotion (and valid arguments) has convinced me that my original logic process was not (logical).

I'll post it later this week, but the ITB/ITC group will remain as it was for 2007 (no SSM). I'll be getting with the Chief Steward (new one this year) regarding split starts in all/most groups (including GTA/SPO), but all I can tell you right now is *I* am in favor of them.

More later...

[lateapex911]

.....has convinced me that my original logic process was not (logical).

Nah...it was logical, just maybe not as logical as it could be.

[Catch22]

I second what some folks said above.

You have to understand how important the ARRC is to ITB and ITC drivers not just because its the ARRC but because its a chance to actually get your own race without dodging pinatas all day.

[Butch Kummer]

I'm attaching the proposed Schedule that is currently under review by the Stewards and Race Board. Once I have their approval we'll be sending it off to Topeka.

I've talked to our new for 2008 Chief Steward Laurie Sheppard about split starts. While she's not a fan of them, she's "okay" with them as long as we have two pace cars (which we will). She also understands the nature of this event makes a split start more desireable, and has agreed with my request to do split starts in most if not all the run groups.

Proposed Groups:

Group 1: ITB, ITC, ITT, SRX
Group 2: ASM, DP, ITU
Group 3: GP, IT7, ITA
Group 4: ITR, ITS, SPU, SSM
Group 5: BP, ITO, ST, TCC
Group 6: ASR, CFC, FB, FS
Group 7: GTA, SPO
Group 8: CF, FFX, FST
Group 9: Pro-IT – ASM, IT7, ITA, ITB, ITC, ITR, ITS, ITT, ITU, SRX, SSM
Group 10: “Bonus” Race – ASR, CF, CFC, FB, FFX, FS
Group 11: Enduro – ASM, IT7, ITA, ITB, ITC, ITO, ITR, ITS, ITT, ITU, SRX, SSM


Friday, 11/7:
. 20-minute qualifying session for Groups 1-9
. lunch (and $10 Track Tours)
. 15-minute qualifying sessions (gridded by morning times) Groups 1-8
. 20-lap Pro-IT race

Saturday, 11/8:
. "out-in" hardship warm-up
. 20-lap ARRC Championship races, Groups 1-4
. lunch (and $10 Track Tours)
. 20-lap ARRC Championship races, Groups 5-8

Sunday, 11/9:
. 30-minute qualifying, Group 11A (ASM, ITB, ITC, ITT, SRX, SSM)
. 20-minute qualifying, Group 10
. 30-minute qualifying, Group 11B (IT7, ITA, ITO, ITR, ITS, ITU)
. 10:00 - 12:30: Quiet Time and PDX sessions on track
. 20-lap "Bonus" race for Group 10
. Three-Hour Enduro, Group 11

[lateapex911]

Glad to see the dialog and the consideration, Butch!

Immediate reactions: (both purely greedy!)

-Laurie Sheppard as the Chief Stew? Good choice.
-And move lunch up between groups 3 and 4 so we IT guys can cheer on our brethren.

Question, how will you actually "split" the groups like 1,3, 4?

Will it be:
1: Pace car: ITB ------------ Pace car: ITC ITT & SRX?
3: Pace car: ITA ------------ Pace car: IT7, GP?
4: Pace car: ITR, ITS, STU -- Pace car: SSM?

[Butch Kummer]

Jake,

We don't get to choose the Chief Steward, but we do have input into it. I've worked with Laurie in the past and when Rick Mitchell (SEDIV Exec. Steward) said she was interested, I was completely in support of it.

Not enough hours in the day to run three groups before lunch and five after. I could move the groups around (swap 4 & 5, for instance), but I'm also positioning ourselves for 2009 when we get to use both paddocks. We'll run Saturday morning from one side, eat lunch, then move Grid and the Tech people to the other side for the afternoon.

The splits will depend on the number of cars per class, but I'd anticipate something very similar to what you listed. I know you guys don't care about us neanderthals in the other groups, but carrying further it will likely be:

Group 5 - may split TCC out (depending on how many show)
Group 6 - split for FB
Group 7 - SPO, then GTA (the REAL racers!)
Group 8 - FST depending on counts, may also do a split grid for this one

"Thank you for you input..."

[RacerBill]

"Thank you for you input..."

Cruel!

[lateapex911]

Jake,

We don't get to choose the Chief Steward, but we do have input into it. I've worked with Laurie in the past and when Rick Mitchell (SEDIV Exec. Steward) said she was interested, I was completely in support of it.

Not enough hours in the day to run three groups before lunch and five after. I could move the groups around (swap 4 & 5, for instance), but I'm also positioning ourselves for 2009 when we get to use both paddocks. We'll run Saturday morning from one side, eat lunch, then move Grid and the Tech people to the other side for the afternoon.

The splits will depend on the number of cars per class, but I'd anticipate something very similar to what you listed. I know you guys don't care about us neanderthals in the other groups, but carrying further it will likely be:

Group 5 - may split TCC out (depending on how many show)
Group 6 - split for FB
Group 7 - SPO, then GTA (the REAL racers!)
Group 8 - FST depending on counts, may also do a split grid for this one

"Thank you for you input..."

Just have lunch earlier~! (I always thought it was between 3 and 4 in the past, but I'm mistaken I guess)

As for not caring about the other groups, well, it's not quite THAT bad...I just don't have the expertise to estimate in my head the speed differentials between the listed classes, withIN the listed classes, and the expected turnouts, so I kept my mouth shut......for once!

[Butch Kummer]

Just have lunch earlier~! (I always thought it was between 3 and 4 in the past, but I'm mistaken I guess)

The last two years we've only run seven races on Saturday (the FE guys raced on Sunday last year), so we'd do lunch between 3 & 4. This year we're running all the Championship races on Saturday, so we need to do a 4/4 split.

[jjoyce]

What is the enduro schedule going to look like? Pit stops, time limits, etc.

Thanks

[Greg Amy]

Group 4: ITR, ITS, SPU, SSM

Any guesses why that made me - literally - gasp and cringe...?

That, right there, will be a group to watch, just for the carnage potential...

[dj10]

Any guesses why that made me - literally - gasp and cringe...?

That, right there, will be a group to watch, just for the carnage potential...

Greg, my thoughts exactly!:eek:

[Butch Kummer]

Any guesses why that made me - literally - gasp and cringe...?

That, right there, will be a group to watch, just for the carnage potential...

Obviously we have carnage potential in any run group, but in this case the SPU cars should leave the ITS/ITR cars pretty handily while all of them outdistance the SSM cars. And since they are faster on both the straights and in the corners, the faster cars should clear the slower cars fairly easily when they come up to lap them. This is a better option than pairing SSM with ITB/ITC (see comments above).

As always, I'm open to suggestions...

[Greg Amy]

As always, I'm open to suggestions...

I don't envy your responsibilities, Butch. And, I'm not going to offer any suggestions, because I don't have any objective ones that I can offer without personal conflict.

But, nobody wants to say it out loud, so I will: the bottom line is nobody wants to race with Spec Miata.

There, I said it.

Well, maybe other Spec Miatas want to race with Spec Miata (maybe), but obviously ITB doesn't. And, I can say with some confidence ITS and ITR don't. I'm pretty sure ITA would be reasonably unhappy with it, too.

Purely selfish commentary: Sure, the straight-line speed should allow ITS/R/SPU cars to out-distance the SSM cars. Hell, even the mid-packer ITx cars should remain clear of the SSM'ers. But, what about all the mid- and back-ender SSMs playing their own little reindeer games as ITx cars are trying to get by (and it will happen quickly, and often)? So, instead of front-pack ITB cars having problems with front-packer SSM cars, you'll have most-packer ITS and ITR (and SPU) cars having problems with, possibly, the entire field of SSMs.

I envision, several laps in, a serious contre-temps between front-end battling ITS/R cars coming up on their first gaggle of tail-ender SSMs,battling it out on their own, probably out of T2 going through the T3/4/5/6/7 complex. Call it six ITS/R cars coming up on, oh, six SSMs...

Did you just cringe?

Butch, again: this is purely an empathetic, yet selfish, commentary, not a request for action. I understand the region wanting to cater, for business reasons, to a large group of potential customers who, should they choose, could run - what? - four race groups? But the problem is that in catering to such a contingent, it very well may detrimentally affect other groups, your other customers.

Honestly, seeing the Spec Miatas lumped into the group that I would potentially enter has given me significant pause...just sayin'...

[Butch Kummer]

Duly noted.

I spend a fair amount of time monitoring the SM board as well, and I can tell you the majority of those folks are concerned about the reputation their class/group has gotten over the years. In reality, it appears there are a small number of "cowboys" that have made poor choices regarding their right to maintain momentum (like Spec Miata has a lock on that being important - ALL cars need to maintain momentum in order to be really quick) that have given the entire class a bad name.

I fight the same battle with the Big Noise group. The past two years at the ARRC we've had our race cut short by the Operating Steward - one lap short in 2006, NINE laps short in 2007 - because the "race had gotten out of control". I've reviewed the Tower logs both years and in each case it's 2-3 drivers that drive off the track, run into each other, pass under yellow, and otherwise act like jackasses to ruin the show for the rest of us. We've identified those "repeat offenders" and I've gotten agreement from the Stewards that those people don't get the benefit of the doubt on the first transgression. i.e. - no furled black flag. Punishing the entire group for the stupidity / lack-of-good-judgement of a few is wrong.

The Stewards are willing to take action to clean up the racing, but they need our help. Corner workers are often too busy responding to an incident to monitor other actions on the track, so don't always see passes under yellow or other infractions. If we as drivers are willing to fill out a protest form (particularly if we have in-car evidence to back it up), that goes a long way toward getting the other driver's attention.

From a business standpoint (which affects the entry fees you pay), I need to replace 37 FE cars that were here last year but are not invited to the 2008 ARRC. I'm guessing (hoping) that splitting SSM and ASM will generate 20 of those entries.

Nobody wants to race with other classes (hell, nobody wants to race with cars faster than theirs, but that's a whole different story). As the "premiere" IT class ITS had it's own run group for a number of years and the counts were gradually declining even before we started combining them with other classes. We combined them with TCC in 2006 and that was a fiasco, last year was better but I still heard grumblings that "their" race was shortened a lap because Fletcher lapped the field with his SPU car. Short of giving every class their own race (and dropping the Enduro on Sunday afternoon), I cannot accomodate those wishes.

As far as Group 4, I expect the SPU cars to stretch out fairly quickly - generally they do NOT run in packs like SM does. By lap 12 (which is when the fast ITx cars should be catching the bulk of the SSM cars) we may also have groups of 2-3 ITx cars running together, but history has shown there are not a lot of position changes among the leaders there. At Friday's drivers' meeting I will speak about the "ethics" of class racing in a multi-class group, and urge people to be aware of what's going on around them (and being patient) when lapping and being lapped by cars in another class. Such comments may well fall on deaf ears, but it's the best option I have available to me at this time.

See y'all at the track...

[Butch Kummer]

What is the enduro schedule going to look like? Pit stops, time limits, etc.

Thanks

Although it's not an ECR event, we will be very similar to the ECR rules - minimum two pit stops of five minutes each, no overhead rigs, driver has to be out of the car for fueling. You can also look at the 2007 rules at www.ARRC-Online.com, and the only difference will be five minute stops instead of four (and the entry fee will be $375).

[SPiFF]

Since this I have an IT car, this in an IT board, and the ARRC is supposed to be the IT championship race, we really should try to figure out a way for the IT classes to have their own groups or at minimum have only 2 classes of similar speed cars combined with a split start, R/S, A/7, B/C, for example.

Maybe it could be done by going to a 4 day weekend, dumping the Pro-IT, dumping/shortening the enduro, dumping some of the non-IT classes, etc.

I have only been in IT since 05 and even I can remember the days when the ARRC looked like an IT championship weekend. Every year it is looking less and less so.