Region dues

[tnord]

Dick -

I agree. Any complaint from a person who has never volunteered their time should be met with a certain amount of skepticism. But I do disagree with the notion that event fees (club racing or otherwise), regional dues, and the financial viability of a region are separate issues. There are no separate/individual bank accounts for "typical region operating expenses," "club racing revenue," and "autox revenue."

Tom -

First of all, I have a problem with the notion that the people "volunteering" their time get zero benefit in return, and do it 100% out of the generosity of their heart. At least at *some* level, it's a hobby for those that do not drive just the same. Second, the speculation that it would cost us far more to participate in the club if we had paid employees is nothing but speculation at best. I know of another club that does pay their employees, and has the explicit mission of making money, and are at least comparable in cost to SCCA. Factually stating that our entry fees would at minimum triple is, and i mean this in the nicest possible way, oh......, i dunno, stupid??? In addition, despite your optimistic view of the operational effeciency of the club, there is most definitely money to be saved in the way we do things.

One thing i will agree with is that in a volunteer organization, yes, you do get what you get, and it's very hard to criticize those who offer up their services. But the idea that we should......damnit....i lost my train of thought....i got interrupted with something else that made me mad.

[JoshS]

But I do disagree with the notion that event fees (club racing or otherwise), regional dues, and the financial viability of a region are separate issues. There are no separate/individual bank accounts for "typical region operating expenses," "club racing revenue," and "autox revenue."

Not always! The club doesn't dictate how a region should handle its money. Here in San Francisco Region, Solo has its own money and own accounts.

[tnord]

Not always! The club doesn't dictate how a region should handle its money. Here in San Francisco Region, Solo has its own money and own accounts.

so if SFR's "autox" account ran out of money, would the region stop putting on autox events?

sure, Solo & Club Racing have individual budgets, but i have a hard time believing they won't subsidize one group with the other. i haven't done a very good job of communicating what i'm thinking, and i guess i should clarify that i'm speaking from the perspective of a large region.

[JoshS]

so if SFR's "autox" account ran out of money, would the region stop putting on autox events?

It's probably more likely to go the other way, but both sides are doing fine. However, should one side have a problem, I would imagine that a loan would probably be arranged.

And of course, we too are a jumbo region.

[gran racing]

Interesting how this turned from a discussion of whether $150 regional fee would be accepted to some other discussion. But hey, since Jake can't stay focused on fixing his darn RX7 and want some popcorn...

First of all, I have a problem with the notion that the people "volunteering" their time get zero benefit in return, and do it 100% out of the generosity of their heart.

I've seen what some volunteers do and am absolutely amazed at what they give to the club, how much time they sacrifice, and how the SCCA would be much different without them. The little amount of corner working I've done, I can't begin to wonder how they survive the conditions and am extremely appreciative. Yet at the same point, people often do things because they benefit somehow - feel good about helping others, passionate about the area volunteering for, have some type of personal connection, am proud of their what the add to the org., or whatever. While I might not necessarily agree with everything Travis says or possibly the way he says it, we're all involved in this sport because we want to. I have a hard time forgetting the several workers who I thanked for volunteering their time to only thank me for racing, because without each other neither would exist.

How this thread became about regions not doing their job or it could be done properly is beyond me. You know what, I'll still say a $150 regional due fee sucks. I personally don't think I can run things better than my region already does, but that doesn't mean I can't contribute to our club in some shape or form. Will I ever question decisions made? Absolutely. Is that a bad thing? Nope. I will also say that Travis has a point with the "old guard" protecting what they know to be true. I too have faced that attitude and became frustrated. How long ago was it the old ITAC had the same feeling? I guess it's just human nature, yet somehow, someway new ideas in life seem to keep popping up and just occasionally work.

Jake buddy, I hope you get one of those annoying kernnals stuck between your teeth. How's that popcorn now?

[tnord]

to answer the question at hand.....no, i wouldn't accept a $150 regional fee. i would either switch regions, or not have a region membership at all.

in response to Dave....i too have spent time out on the corners waving flags on a hot, hot, hot day. i can't say i particularly enjoyed it, and i would prefer to not do it again, but some really like it. why would workers from all over the country show up to work the runoffs if they didn't?

the whole conundrum with the volunteer organization is like this in my head;

1) joe runs the region/races this way
2) bob politely suggests it would be done better another way
3) joe isn't so sure that's true, and doesn't feel like expending the energy to find out
4) bob doesn't pressure joe about it, because he understands joe is a volunteer, and on some level it's not fair to criticize how a volunteer does his volunteering
5) joe keeps doing it the way he's always done it because he knows it *works* and he can expend minimal effort to accomplish the end goal, after all, he has a regular job, wife, and kids to tend to.

in the end, nothing changes. joe has done his part by volunteering, but bob has also done his part by trying to provide a solution to what he see's as a problem. nobody is to blame, nobody is at fault, but still nothing changes, and improvements that would benefit all are not realized.

[lateapex911]

Jake buddy, I hope you get one of those annoying kernnals stuck between your teeth. How's that popcorn now?

Ha! you're just jealous of my web mastery skills! I bet you couldn't get a popcorn eater to appear! Go ahead, take a crack!

I'm staying in the audience for this show, although there have been some fat pitches thrown that have been tempting! back to the grind. Tapping the flywheel awaits me.!

[AE86ITA]

Hello everyone:
Here goe the WHY I asked about regional dues. Puerto Rico is now an SCCA region and it's dues have been set at $150.00, we are going through a very hard transition because here there is another Road Racing organization that has been present for the las 35 years and have used the SCCA categories and somewhat accommodate them to our local scenario, and they run under the FIA umbrella.

I just found out that here we are less than 30 SCCA members and in order to cover for much of the racing expenses the regional dues must be enough to at least to break even. I am trying to do my part and promote new members.

I am completely convinced that once we locally start with a strong autocross program and the local Rally club join, we will become a much stronger region but until then we are stuck with a very steep regional due.

I did not mean for you guy to start flaming your regions but at the same time I admired your courage to speak what in your mind, and that does not make any bit of anti SCCA but on the contrary very much in favor.

Thanks you,

[dickita15]

Wow at $150 it will be pretty tough to grow membership. With most region dues is not a big fundraiser. Events that are well run and well attended build up the war chest a lot more. I guess I can understand that the region feels they need to raise some start up money but this may have the opposite effect where membership is required to run events.

[jjjanos]

ya know what i get real tired of?

people that think if you don't volunteer your time, that you don't have the right to say anything negative.

You know what I'm tired of? People who haven't even paid their regional dues complaining about how their region does things...

"agreed. i let it all lapse this year. even if i come back for one race, i'm not paying the region dues, or the nat'l dues if i can avoid it."

You just lost the right to bitch about how a Region sets its dues and spends its money because YOU NO LONGER BELONG.

the whole conundrum with the volunteer organization is like this in my head;

1) joe runs the region/races this way
2) bob politely suggests it would be done better another way
3) joe isn't so sure that's true, and doesn't feel like expending the energy to find out
4) bob doesn't pressure joe about it, because he understands joe is a volunteer, and on some level it's not fair to criticize how a volunteer does his volunteering
5) joe keeps doing it the way he's always done it because he knows it *works* and he can expend minimal effort to accomplish the end goal, after all, he has a regular job, wife, and kids to tend to.

in the end, nothing changes. joe has done his part by volunteering, but bob has also done his part by trying to provide a solution to what he see's as a problem. nobody is to blame, nobody is at fault, but still nothing changes, and improvements that would benefit all are not realized.

Bob has done squat. In a volunteer organization, those willing to do the work get to pick the work they do and they way they do it. These aren't paid positions and forcing people to do anything else results in a position vacancy. The organization can force them to do something new or in a different way, but push the vols far enough and they walk. Gawd help us if we had to pay to get the outstanding service we get from our vols... think what 60 employees for 20+ hours would do to entry fees.

When I headed PR for my Region, one of the tasks was lugging battery-powered kiddie cars to various functions that never got us a single member or even people who kept the race schedules we handed them. After 3 of these time wasters, I told the BoD I wouldn't have anything to do with the cars again even though it was part of the position. Someone else would have to do it.

Lots of members thought the cars were great. People complained that we weren't using the cars anymore, but you know what? Not one damn person stepped up to volunteer to lug those f'ing things around and round up the people to keep the kids from crashing into each other.

[tom_sprecher]

Regrettably I got off course earlier here but I just wanted to add something after allowing myself to get my Irish up and was too lazy to start another post. And to be honest I don't think the subjects of regional dues and regional expenses are too dissimilar that they can not be discussed in the same light. To that end, the cost increase to pay every volunteer has piqued my curiosity and I would like to do a quick study of other racing regions experiences. If any of you are involved with the executive or race boards for your region if you could chime in that would be great.

1. How many volunteers does it take (or should take) to put on a race at a track with say 12-14 corner stations and the GCR required number of support staff?
2. Is your EV and Med staffed by volunteers or paid personnel?
3. How many volunteers does it take to cover regional administration?
4. What would be a fair wage that you would pay to acquire and retain trained personnel based on their level of expertise?
5. How many volunteers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
6. If anyone with NASA experience can make a comparison on the above questions that would be helpful.

Depending on the responses I'll start another thread or keep it here if that's OK. Thanks.

[jjjanos]

I just found out that here we are less than 30 SCCA members and in order to cover for much of the racing expenses the regional dues must be enough to at least to break even. I am trying to do my part and promote new members.

I think I have found the problem... the dues shouldn't be subsidizing the racing programs. If it costs you $10K to put on an event and you get 100 entries, the entry fee should be pretty darn close to $100 for the event. Region dues should be set to cover the cost of having the member and the benefits associated with being a member, i.e. newsletters, a Region website, storing records, non-racing equipment, creating a rainy day fund for off-season expenses, etc.

IMO, Regions shouldn't be putting on events that lose money on a regular basis unless there is some hope of turning a surplus on the event.

I am completely convinced that once we locally start with a strong autocross program and the local Rally club join, we will become a much stronger region but until then we are stuck with a very steep regional due.

Why isn't the autocross program self-sufficient? Is it start up costs? Is it operation costs? The first needs seed money or possibly rent/borrow equipment from another club. The second is a fast way to bankrupt your Region.

[jjjanos]

1. How many volunteers does it take (or should take) to put on a race at a track with say 12-14 corner stations and the GCR required number of support staff?
2. Is your EV and Med staffed by volunteers or paid personnel?
3. How many volunteers does it take to cover regional administration?
4. What would be a fair wage that you would pay to acquire and retain trained personnel based on their level of expertise?
5. If anyone with NASA experience can make a comparison on the above questions that would be helpful.

Summit Point has 11 flag stations (10 corners + S/F). In theory, we could get by with 6 of them staffed(1,3, 5,8,10, SF) so 12 people. Comfort suggests that 10 stations should be staffed and some of them require more than the GCR minimum of 2 people - call it 25 at the absolute bare minimum and that would mean NOBODY across the track. Figure 20 hours at $8-$10/hour (factoring in wages, taxes, insurance, permits, etc.).

[gran racing]

Like Dick said, it really seems like you've got to reduce those membership fees. Between the region fee and then tack on the other national fees...eeek!

Might there be any value for this other Road Racing organization to merge with your SCCA region?

Are there any other fund raisers you could do to help raise some capital? Contact other regions for ideas, and the National office (Mike Dickerson is fantastic to work with and has a wealth of ideas on these types of subjects).

Where abouts in PR is the region located / looking to host various events?

[tom_sprecher]

Travis - you're a financial analyst overseeing billions of dollars in annual spend on a daily basis, right? In the US, on average, what % is the total of every cost associated with labor (salaries, wages, other compension, taxes, benefits, insurance, 401k matching, etc.) with repsect a companies to total revenue? Just ballpark it.

[tnord]

damnit....if forgot to put jjjjjjjjjjjjanos on ignore on this board.

i'm not racing this year, i get nothing from the region, i receive none of the benefits, why should i write them a check? I'll be back next year, just chill out there sparky. if nothing else, my service to the region last year has bought me a 1yr grace period. yeah, that's right....i'm someone who actually DID volunteer his time, attended board meetings, ran for a board position, and i still think there's plenty we could do better.

the idea that if you don't volunteer you can't speak is total shit. what in the world would a region even do with 500+ volunteers?

i'm pretty sure if you actually had qualified employees whose job it was to figure out how to lower operating costs, they would. just because you start paying people to do a job doesn't mean entry fees, regional dues, etc would automatically go up. i get paid to do this in real life, and i've certainly paid my salary many times over.

and believe it or not, there are certain volunteers that actually do more harm than good, and the region would be better off without. :eek:

pretty tough to tell a volunteer to go away though.

[Andy Bettencourt]

The volunteer issue has gone a little too far. It's actually a very simple thing:

1. Everyone is entitled to their opinion
2. No one person has all the answers
3. Volunteers need to be open to ideas
4. Non-volunteers need to understand that critisism without alternate ideas/solutions is NOT productive
5. When a volunteer asks 'you' to become part of the solution, it means focusing some of your energy on HELPING make things better

Most volunteers do what they do because they want to do the best they can - and probably started because they saw something they thought they could improve.

NV's need to remember that V's are trying there best in most cases...and V's need to remember that just because they are a V - doesn't entitle them to not try their best.

[tnord]

Travis - you're a financial analyst overseeing billions of dollars in annual spend on a daily basis, right? In the US, on average, what % is the total of every cost associated with labor (salaries, wages, other compension, taxes, benefits, insurance, 401k matching, etc.) with repsect a companies to total revenue? Just ballpark it.

not a valid question. this will vary way too much across industries.

without getting into proprietary information.....i can say if SCCA wanted to provide benefits to their employees should they go this way, i bet it would add about 50% to the labor cost.

[tom_sprecher]

I just though since you do financial analysis in "real life" you might have an idea of what the US average would be. It seems like a valid question to me since the term "average" would do just that across all industries.

But that's OK, if you don't know, I'll just Google it.

[tnord]

I just though since you do financial analysis in "real life" you might have an idea of what the US average would be. It seems like a valid question to me since the term "average" would do just that across all industries.

except in real life you don't care about the national average, you care about how you're positioned within the industry.