Heater cores

[GKR_17]

Come on now, do you REALLY think that removing a 2 pound heater core and a 1 pound washer bottle are going to make your car last longer? Do the math for me ok?

A well prepped car is going to weigh the same with or without those items. The weight would just move to the floor. There have been many times I was glad (or wished) I had a functional defroster. And even one where I wished the washer system was operational.

[lateapex911]

A well prepped car is going to weigh the same with or without those items. The weight would just move to the floor. There have been many times I was glad (or wished) I had a functional defroster. And even one where I wished the washer system was operational.

Grafton, i hear you! I suspect the complaint is that certain cars are hard to get to min weight, and we should make more allowances.....

But...my point is, 3 pounds? THAT's going to make the car last longer/win more/be better to drive?

If we're going to change the rules because our level of granularity has gotten down to 3 pounds, well that's another thing, but this is IT, not F1, and we can't class/prep/drive our stock based cars to that level.

[Z3_GoCar]

Thanks James:
But been there done that, I was trying to make a point. We are now SCCA in PR and what sence would it make here south Florida, Texas or southern California to have a heater core in our cars?

Ok I grant you it is an item that could make an impact on comfort and on a rainy day but aside from that once it is full of coolant it could weight a few unwanted pounds.

Don't try to bring that point whenever you guys come down to race as everyone will laugh on your face.

We'll fact is no one says it's got to be functional. Drained of water those things can't weigh much. Same with the washer bottle, empty it's probably not even 12oz. If you laugh in my face, I hope I'm wearing clown makeup There's a reason my wife has clown music on her phone for her ringer, "March of the Gladiators" anyone??

James

[court76wi]

I'm doing a little experiment, as my Freshman ITAC member research project. I call it "Bizzaro World ITCS." I took the 2008 version of our rules, and am amending them to include all of the changes that the ITAC is asked to consider.

While you're writing that, could you also add "allow upper adjustable arms for the purpose of camber adjustment". I love how you're allowed to cut, blast, weld, and drill the chassis (including installing "pillowball" mounts) to adjust camber, but you can't install upper adjustable arms. Eh?? That's not too Bizzaro of a rule adjustment/request.

[itb76]

...this is IT, not F1, and we can't class/prep/drive our stock based cars to that level.

Jake, you have the nicest avatar.

I appreciate having defrost and heat in my race car. Not often, but it's great when you need it. There's no way I'm going to notice 3 lbs of weight in my car. Run prod or GT car if you're that sensitive about weight.

[Knestis]

While you're writing that, could you also add "allow upper adjustable arms for the purpose of camber adjustment". I love how you're allowed to cut, blast, weld, and drill the chassis (including installing "pillowball" mounts) to adjust camber, but you can't install upper adjustable arms. Eh?? That's not too Bizzaro of a rule adjustment/request.

So, you actually believe that opening up the IT rules to allow people to replace control arms is a good idea? I have a suspicion that you're picturing buying affordable off-the-shelf replacement pieces (a la Honda aftermarket) but you do understand that the same rule would give everyone the opportunity to do any darned thing they want, right?

K

[tom_sprecher]

I have a suspicion that you're picturing buying affordable off-the-shelf replacement pieces (a la Honda aftermarket) but you do understand that the same rule would give everyone the opportunity to do basically the same thing, right?

K

Fixed that for ya and it seems like a wash, but hey, that's just my honest observasion.

[Knestis]

So you're OK with me building uber-light suspension arms to whatever dimensions I want...?

Here we go...!

K

[joeracerx95]

I keep seeing references to 3-5lbs not being important. I disagree. A couple years ago the 1st gen RX7 was given a 100lb weight reduction. That's great. Except as far as I know, no one can get that much weight out of the car to make minimum so the rule makers didn't REALLY give the car a 100lb break.

I weight 185lbs which isn't a huge number. I've taken everything legal out of the car and I'm still 50lbs above minimum. 50 lbs DOES matter. And if I had 5lbs here and 5lbs there and another 5lbs over there that I could take out I could eventually get my weight down to minimum. So in that context 5lbs does matter. Just like 2HP matters. If I gain 2hp from a timing adjustment and another 2hp by using slicker gear oil and another 2hp etc. etc. pretty soon I have 10HP more than you do. Think 10HP matters in an ITA car?

None of the above should be taken to say we should or should not be allowed to remove the heater core, I'm just saying.

[joeg]

Ambient Air is blown through the core and diverted to the windshield for a "defroster"

[jrvisual]

"9.1.3. Improved Touring Category Specifications
9. Driver/Passenger Compartment - Trunk

c. ... Other than modifications made to mount instruments and provide for roll cage installation, the remainder of the dash “board” or panel shall remain intact.

f. ... Other than to provide for the installation of required safety equipment or other authorized modifications, no other driver/passenger compartment alterations or gutting are permitted."

Just Playing Devil's Advocate and otherwise causing problems.

If you creatively interpret these lines from the ITCS, and creatively design your cage with front cross bar to pass though where your heater core should be, would it not be legal to remove your heater core. Getting that cross bar as far forward as possible would produce a safer cage and in many cars require the removal of the heater core.

Argue amongst yourselves

[lateapex911]

Interesting.
1- I own a 1st gen RX-7. And curiously, I'm on the ITAC. I know of 1st gens getting under the min. My car was just weighed post race at Mid Ohio at 2300. And I have a sunroof, as well as some other tricks up my sleeve that will pull 20 or more out of the car. Sadly, I'm 6'3", and I weigh 195 -205, depending ...so, with a median driver, it appears the weight is possible.

2- I have my cage dash bar running thru the dash, hitting the firewall, then running back to the A pillar downtubes. And my heater core is intact. And functional. using that allowance is old news, and cheesy, at least to me.

3- I still don't buy the "3pounds matters" line of thinking. YES, it adds up, BUT, I'm only talking about ONE three pound item, not TEN.

If you are not a pro and you're reading this, I'll give you $500 if you can bring your IT car, a blindfold and a 3 pound object. You put the blindfold on, get in the car...the 3 pounds may, or may not be there. We do it again, and again, and again. 5 laps per session. If you can show consistent laps that are faster when the weight is out, the money is yours.

Not to be cocky and sound like tGA, but you can't. My money is safe.

[Knestis]

But if tGA were DRIVING, your money would be...

...his.



K

[joeracerx95]

Interesting.
1- I own a 1st gen RX-7. And curiously, I'm on the ITAC. I know of 1st gens getting under the min. My car was just weighed post race at Mid Ohio at 2300. And I have a sunroof, as well as some other tricks up my sleeve that will pull 20 or more out of the car. Sadly, I'm 6'3", and I weigh 195 -205, depending ...so, with a median driver, it appears the weight is possible.

2- I have my cage dash bar running thru the dash, hitting the firewall, then running back to the A pillar downtubes. And my heater core is intact. And functional. using that allowance is old news, and cheesy, at least to me.

3- I still don't buy the "3pounds matters" line of thinking. YES, it adds up, BUT, I'm only talking about ONE three pound item, not TEN.

If you are not a pro and you're reading this, I'll give you $500 if you can bring your IT car, a blindfold and a 3 pound object. You put the blindfold on, get in the car...the 3 pounds may, or may not be there. We do it again, and again, and again. 5 laps per session. If you can show consistent laps that are faster when the weight is out, the money is yours.

Not to be cocky and sound like tGA, but you can't. My money is safe.

If you can provide me with tips that legally removes an additional 20lbs from my car I'll pay YOU $500.

[jrvisual]

If you can provide me with tips that legally removes an additional 20lbs from my car I'll pay YOU $500.

Eat and drink less

[lateapex911]

If you can provide me with tips that legally removes an additional 20lbs from my car I'll pay YOU $500.

How much does your header weigh? How about the exhaust? The muffler? (Mines 6 pounds, I think). The radiator..aluminum? Fuel cell and bracketry? Seat? gauge cluster out? (It's about 3 right there). Fasteners? All the gunk on the floor gone? Many people just skin over the sunroof opening. But they keep the heavy roof under it. The non sunroof roof has no triple thick gutters and such...it's lighter. Doors gutted? Cage safe but minimal? Hollow sway bars? Aluminum bits everywhere when appropriate? Wheels under 10 pounds each? useless bling items banished (tower strut is debated to be less than useful, for example, and I see many that are made with heavy gauge L or C channel, and they are in front of the strut. Great, lots of weight, up high, in front of the front axle!) And so on..........

There's 20 pounds in there I bet, if you haven't done some of it. I accept paypal to my email below!

Each item above has potential. Each one has tradeoffs. And I haven't done each of those...yet.

It can be done, and it has been done.

[Knestis]

If you can provide me with tips that legally removes an additional 20lbs from my car I'll pay YOU $500.

Put the money toward decreasing the weight. Diminishing returns becomes an increasingly important issue and the removal of each additional pound costs more than the previous one.

K

[joeracerx95]

How much does your header weigh? How about the exhaust? The muffler? (Mines 6 pounds, I think). The radiator..aluminum? Fuel cell and bracketry? Seat? gauge cluster out? (It's about 3 right there). Fasteners? All the gunk on the floor gone? Many people just skin over the sunroof opening. But they keep the heavy roof under it. The non sunroof roof has no triple thick gutters and such...it's lighter. Doors gutted? Cage safe but minimal? Hollow sway bars? Aluminum bits everywhere when appropriate? Wheels under 10 pounds each? useless bling items banished (tower strut is debated to be less than useful, for example, and I see many that are made with heavy gauge L or C channel, and they are in front of the strut. Great, lots of weight, up high, in front of the front axle!) And so on..........

There's 20 pounds in there I bet, if you haven't done some of it. I accept paypal to my email below!

Each item above has potential. Each one has tradeoffs. And I haven't done each of those...yet.

It can be done, and it has been done.

Everything you mentioned except hollow roll bars has been done and I don't think those are worth 20lb by themselves. Funny, but that seems to be a list of several 3-5 pound modifications that add up to a meaningful amount. Hmmm, where have I heard that mentioned before as being important???

Your $500 can be found in a mayonnaise jar on Funk and Wagnel's porch. (In pennies)

Anyway, sorry to temporarily highjack the thread. This is about rules, rule changes etc. not about my inability to make minimum weight.

So what I think I'm hearing the rules makers say is that those that suggest rule changes don't always understand the unintended consequences of their suggestion, which is very true. I would also suggest to the rules makers to please minimize condescending treatment of the people making the suggestions because maybe you don't see the whole picture all the time either. For reference please see "Bizzaro World ITCS." as an example of treating people who are trying to make honest efforts to improve things as nothing more than idiots worthy of public ridicule.

So sometimes you have to ask the question, "What problem exists that this solves?" I can't think of a meaningful problem that exists with having the heater core in the car. So why try to solve a problem that doesn't exist? Especially if that change may lead to unforeseen problems. Remember, only hindsight is 20/20. Just because you can't think of any potential problems doesn't mean there aren't going to be some.

[lateapex911]

. I would also suggest to the rules makers to please minimize condescending treatment of the people making the suggestions because maybe you don't see the whole picture all the time either. For reference please see "Bizzaro World ITCS." as an example of treating people who are trying to make honest efforts to improve things as nothing more than idiots worthy of public ridicule.

.

I think Kirks intent, and I should probably leave it to him to explain it, but.....wasn't to publicly ridicule people for having honest suggestions, but more as a method of illustrating the slippery slope, and how easy it is to travel great distances down it in relatively small steps.

I also think he wouldn't mind showing the world the sometimes selfish requests that are received.....it's a reminder that personal interests are often at the core of, or at least involved in, many requests. That's not always a bad thing, but if the guy next to in grid you shows up with all lexan instead of glass, and it's a spec line allowance, you'll be less than pleased I bet. (actual request, IIRC)

[tom_sprecher]

All in fun...

What wheels are under 10# and where can I get some? Oh, wait; I don't have the money for that. Now I guess I need to buy an aluminum fuel cell container. Damn, that takes money, too. Hollow swab bar, yeah...wait; wonder how much those are? More than I got I'm sure.

Everything else on his list I've done except the strut bar but that came from MazdaSpeed and didn't seem like it weighted much. I do have some gauges but I'm pretty sure that oil pressure and water temp is something good to know as long as it's before seeing smoke. Or at least I think I read that somewhere.

Get rid of bling...I could get rid of the cool helmet system I made but down here in the summer it can get pretty hot and I'd hate to cause a wreck due to heat exhaustion induced dizziness. Or die of heat stroke shortly there after, that is if the wreck didn't kill me. Hmmm...maybe I should keep that bling. I'm definitely leaving the Mr. T necklaces and the gangsta three finger ring at home on race weekend though.

I'm 6'2" and 195 and am still 60# over weight. I can't possible eat any more salad unless I just become a vegetarian and even still there's no way I'm getting down to 135. Unless I amputated a leg, but then how would I push the clutch? I'm pretty sure the GCR forbids automatics, or it should. Plus, it would suck if I cut off my leg and still wasn't at minimum weight. How would I weigh my leg? I mean before I cut off. This is starting to get complicated and desperate.

Crap. Looks like no mun, no fun.

Anybody got any money that is weighing them down and reducing their lap times that they would like to get rid of? I can help you, call me. Or, if you want to buy some bling, (except for the iced out hip hop ring), lemme know.