Heater cores

[gran racing]

I don't take this as a specific question related to the S2K; it just so happens it is coming from someone whose building one.

For example, here is a diagram of the coolant hose routing on the S2000.

When I saw that diagram, I chuckled thinking how easy the engine bay of that Honda is compared to my ole Prelude was.

[lateapex911]

Dave, that's a good point, it's all about what we're used to. I race/wrench an RX-7, with that huge motor. (LOL). I got a Porsche 944S2 for ITR, took a look a the engine compartment and started feeling queasy!

Oh, and OK, Jeff, the avatar stays. (See? everytime I mention I should change it, I get objections!)

[Eagle7]

I tossed that avatar up as a test (and a joke, kinda) ....

So that's not you????

[lateapex911]

So that's not you????

If that was me, you guys would be offering me free tires and crew help and tickets to everywhere!

[Greg Amy]

If that was me, you guys would be offering me free tires and crew help and tickets to everywhere!

Hey, Jake, you know that email I sent to you about this weekend? Hah, hah, that was just a joke, hah, hah, just kidding...hah, hah...

[CCDangie71]

Jake,
If your avatar pic WAS you then I would strongly recommend you keep the heater in your car in fine working order. At a glance it appears you were a tad chilly when the picture was taken.

[gran racing]

I was thinking the exact opposite.

[lateapex911]

I knew that was coming!

For the pervs (that's nearly all of us) that need a larger view, click on it and go to my gallery. four others there too, for your viewing pleasure....

[wcmcarlos]

David,
I dont have the answer to that question, but at this year's double DS at RR, it was raining cats & toads for the first run session.
I turned on the defroster, put fan on high, and it worked.
Worked in paddock, grid, and warm up lap.
No A/C, no heater, windows wide open, blower cleared the windshield. and double

Carlos

[DavidM]

I think if you can get enough air movement then the windshield won't fog. I know several people that just have fans that blow across the windshield. I was wondering if actually using the heater core to heat up the air was any good. The A/C in my daily driver is out and it's pretty much useless to run the defrost fan without being able to kick-on the A/C to dry out the air so I was thinking using the heater core wouldn't help too much.

David

[GKR_17]

Warm air holds more water, so using the heater does help. Plus, if the windshield is warmer, less vapor will condense there in the first place. Cooling it before heating will pull some of the moisture out so it would work even better. As should be clear from this topic, cars had defrosters long before they had AC.

[nsuracer]

I have only been racing I.T. for 2 years but I ran circle track in Mini Stocks for about 15 years. Here is my take on all this. It really doesn't matter weather the heater is an asset or not. If you are racing a fairly new car that has everything in it, you are probably not faced with maintenance problems on the accessory items in the car. If however, you are racing a 25+ year old (fill in the blank), you are then forced to maintain nonessential systems that have absolutely nothing to do with performance. For example, Westmoreland Rabbits have plastic dashboards that break up, fuse boxes that go south, and wiring harnesses that are junk. I'd like to rip it all out and start over with only essential systems (including the heater).

For all those who say, go to production, I say that you are missing the point. Circle tracks run a class that is a whole lot stocker than I.T., it is called Hornets. The cars are dead stock, but they allow the entire interior to be gutted.

In my opinion, the modification rules have already gone to far. It is possible to spend a double butt load of money on legal suspension mods. Bottom line is, I would be against any rule change that would be performance inhancing but I sure would like to simplify the cars some.

[dickita15]

Well said.

[Knestis]

...Circle tracks run a class that is a whole lot stocker than I.T., it is called Hornets. The cars are dead stock, but they allow the entire interior to be gutted. ...

What's the claim rule like at your circle track? Here's what we've got at our local venue (for the similar UCAR class):

3. This is a claimer class. there will be a $900.00 claim on any car that finishes in the top three positions.

4. You must finish in the top six to place a claim. You must place your claim before the top three finishers are done with tech. Your claim must be placed with the pit Stewart in cash and in writing. The track will also reserve the right to claim any car or part anytime - racing seats and personal gear will not be part of any claim.

5. Refusing a claim will result in that car being banned from Ona Speedway and the driver being banned for the remainder of the season.

That pretty much defines the level of preparation at the front.

I'll keep asking the question as long as people keep making their cases based on their belief that THEIR favorite changed doesn't "enhance performance" - Would you be willing to accept as the new reality, the ITAC accepting every proposed rule change that applied that rationale? If not, what's your bright line for deciding what is and what isn't allowed?

K

[dickita15]

Kirk,
I honor you and agree with your commitment to preventing us from heading for that slippery slope. I may have been a little fast with my agreement with the above. What struck me about nsuracer is the difference between someone prepping a 5 year old IT car and a 25 year old It car.
For the newer car keeping it simple is having to make the least number of modifications to make a competitive race car. For the older cars it is about not having to waste considerable time and finances to maintain and replace parts and systems that really do not contribute to the car being raced.
In order to evaluate a rule change request one need to appreciate both perspectives and the unintended consequences to both groups.

[Knestis]

...and I don't for one minute disagree that what you describe is a huge burden to someone building an old car. However, while I'm sympathetic, there's no practical way to address that problem without creating other problems.

I'm reminded that one of the best things about IT - that it's an actively multi-marque category where owners of different cars of different vintages can race one-another - is also the root of its biggest challenges. Remember that we also hear from owners of newly-eligible cars that they have problems that THEY would like to have the rules "fix" for them. Too many electronics, too much stuff, etc.

Since it's also a first principle that the IT rules apply to all eligible cars across the board, without make/model-specific allowances, this is a situation that we live with for the greater health of the category.

K

[JeffYoung]

It is, actually, something of a rough trade off that I have to deal with a ratty 30 year old wiring harness, and on the flip side the guy with the newer car has to figure out how to make his car run without ABS sensors........

[dickita15]

Yes Jeff that is one of the facts of life of rule making, if all sides are complaining in you may just have found balance.
I am just happy that nsuracer reminded us all of the frustration on the old car side.
By the way what class is an NSU in anyway?

[tom_sprecher]

Yes Jeff that is one of the facts of life of rule making, if all sides are complaining in you may just have found balance.

With all due respect to current and past members of the ITAC another possibility could be you haven't really thought it through enough to provide a set of rules that everyone can agree with. It all depends on your point of view and the view of who's in charge, doesn't it?

To head off the stability crowd I agree that the stability of the IT rule set is appealing to some but the bottom line is the vast majority of guys pick IT because of the perception, real or imagined, that it is a "cheap" way to race in the SCCA. When the rules prevent that from becoming reality those same guys start complaining, or breaking the rules.

Compare the rule stability of say, formula, to that of IT. Except for the recent allowance of a cheap, alternate replacement of the expensive, hard to find, 35 year old engine they have been using, FC has had but a few minor rule changes in the past 15 years. How many rule changes has there been in IT over the past 15 years?

When I was involved in that category I don't recall anyone complaining about the rules. What's up with that? Did they get it wrong or have we? Why do they enjoy hassle free racing with respect to their rules while the number of posts on this site is testament that our rule set is extremely controversial and there are more than a few disgruntled customers here?

And please, this has all been only food for thought. I do not mean to seem critical of those who have gotten us here. If ITAC members only serve for two to four years and then are replaced then I have no problems with the process. Actually, how does that work exactly?

[lateapex911]

Tom, unfortunately, that's a bit apples to oranges. FC cars are built from the inception as racing cars. Our cars are built with NO thought from the manufacturer about racing, they are designed and created to sell in a competitive new car marketplace, and the technologies they embody are constantly evolving. I suggest that, if time stood still, and cars that entered the ITCS were frozen technology-wise, that our rules would be more stable.

I also think that while you suggest that most enter IT because it is cheap, that in fact, most enter IT for a more complex set of reasons. I bet that many decide that the Formula and Sports racing categories need to be eliminated for family reasons (logical or not, wives who perceive certain disaster can put a real damper on the racing hobby), and our category attracts those people who wish to race sedans/coupe style cars utilizing the original chassis, because they are turned off by the amount of work and engineering expertise that is required of Prod and GT racers.

You say "Cheap", which to most means "less cash", but IT is popular, in my mind, because it is lower cost. And lower cost is, to me, less engineering: no billet cranks to design and produce. Less material science:: no carbon fenders and hoods to mold and produce. Less finite element analysis: No space frames to design, loft and weld. And so on. "Lower cost" encompasses much more than pure cash.

And, in actuality, if winning trophies on the cheap were the reason for most who race IT, their dollars would be better spend buying old Prod cars, like a friend of mine did, then going out and grabbing trophies at the Regionals. He spends FAR less than even me, and scores WAY more trophies. But he races against far fewer.

What I'm saying is that IT attracts people for a far more complex set of variables that cash alone, and I think the ruleset and the leadership have a lot to do with it.

Regarding the ITAC, resumes are submitted by members wishing to serve, and as openings occur, they are filled from the pool of candidates. The goal is to have an ITAC with individuals that are diverse in the category (members representing most, or all of the classes) are from diverse geographical areas, and who have resumes displaying aptitudes appropriate for the job.