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Thread: Heater cores

  1. #61
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    It's ironic that yesterday I discovered that my grand explosion caused by my pressure plate going postal at 7500 rpm also damaged my heater core!

    But, I will repair and retain it, and I'm even scheming to improve water flow to it. Might as well make everything better if I'm going to do all the work to rebuild everything in that 6" CAT scan of the car anyway!
    Jake Gulick


    CarriageHouse Motorsports
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  2. #62
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    It doesn't have to be apples and oranges. I always assumed they call it formula because you have a drawing or "formula" that gives dimensions that can not be exceeded. Wheelbase, track, OA length, wing height and width, etc. Also the engine is basically the same as an IT engine as far as what you can modify. IT could be the same if you had fewer rules because "if it doesn't say you can, you can't" really amounts to volumes of rules.

    It's unfortunate that purpose built race cars are perceived to be more difficult or expensive to maintain and race. Different situations apply of course, but as a for instance, Butch races GTA and pays less for his Goodyear racing slicks than I pay for those crappy Toyos. Also, steel tubing and fiberglass is much cheaper that re-shelling or sectioning the damage on a production based car at least for me because I don't own a body shop.

    Your pressure plate explosion is freaking me out. Please stop talking about it or I'll have to install a scatter shield and add even more to the 60# I'm already over weight.
    Last edited by tom_sprecher; 07-14-2008 at 11:50 AM. Reason: Added wild speculation and baseless facts
    Tom Sprecher

  3. #63
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    Wow, hasn't this thread taken on a life of it's own. To answer questions of my last post. 1. I-25 Speedway does not have a claim rule for the Hornet class. If anyone is interested in their rules they are on their web site. 2. When I had them NSUs ran in C Sedan and GT5. I am sure that everyone has a "Cars I wish I still had" list. The NSU would be at the top of my list.

    Anyway back to the issue at hand. Is it my imagination, or are all the new cars being classified in I.T. going into ITA and above? In the MIDIV ITA is the strongest class. ITB is sort of holding its own and ITC has all but died. Perhaps some class specific rule changes could be considered? Just some more grist for the mill.

  4. #64
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    Oh.. you mean Cee-dan

    I saw a buntch of those this weekend helping my friend with his Formula Continental. So, I wonder about that rule that basically says, AC can be removed in it's entirety. If the AC coil is integrated with the heater coil such that it's the same part, can you then remove the heater coil?? Do you have to perform coil surgury, or just leave it all in there?

    James
    STU BMW Z3 2.5liter

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z3_GoCar View Post
    So, I wonder about that rule that basically says, AC can be removed in it's entirety. If the AC coil is integrated with the heater coil such that it's the same part, can you then remove the heater coil?? Do you have to perform coil surgury, or just leave it all in there?
    I say you have to leave it there, but I'm a conservative rules reader.

    But what cars are like that? I've never seen a car where the A/C evaporator and the heater core were the same part.
    Josh Sirota
    ITR '99 BMW Z3 Coupe

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsuracer View Post
    In the MIDIV ITA is the strongest class. ITB is sort of holding its own and ITC has all but died. Perhaps some class specific rule changes could be considered? Just some more grist for the mill.
    Where is ITS or ITR? I know a bit off topic, but the forum needs a bit of life.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Earp View Post
    Where is ITS or ITR? I know a bit off topic, but the forum needs a bit of life.
    ITS is healthy and ITR is a growth class.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshS View Post
    I say you have to leave it there, but I'm a conservative rules reader.

    But what cars are like that? I've never seen a car where the A/C evaporator and the heater core were the same part.
    I didn't have a particular car in mind with that, it just seemed like a potential conflict. One where a case, maybe resonable people might disagree about, where the heater core could be chucked. I'll confess that's one thing I need, amoung many items, to truely be legel. But I might show up anyway just to keep the license current.

    James
    STU BMW Z3 2.5liter

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsuracer View Post
    Wow, hasn't this thread taken on a life of it's own. To answer questions of my last post. 1. I-25 Speedway does not have a claim rule for the Hornet class. If anyone is interested in their rules they are on their web site. 2. When I had them NSUs ran in C Sedan and GT5. I am sure that everyone has a "Cars I wish I still had" list. The NSU would be at the top of my list.

    Anyway back to the issue at hand. Is it my imagination, or are all the new cars being classified in I.T. going into ITA and above? In the MIDIV ITA is the strongest class. ITB is sort of holding its own and ITC has all but died. Perhaps some class specific rule changes could be considered? Just some more grist for the mill.
    So absent the claim rule, how effectively are the "you gotta be stock" rules actually applied? Is it one of those "Well, these springs were stock on SOMETHING, right?" kind of deals.?

    We've had ongoing conversations and even mini-initiatives to try to list more cars in B and C but there's little consensus re: why the classes are shrinking. At some level, it's got to be because in general, performance levels of new cars are simply getting higher. Today's crapbox sedans outperform sports cars and "hot hatches" of the '80s.

    K

  10. #70
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    I am sorry but, could someone explain to me what is a heater core? I am from PR
    Efrain N Alers
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE86ITA View Post
    I am sorry but, could someone explain to me what is a heater core? I am from PR
    In PR you probably don't use it much!

    It's the small radiator that's under the dash. Hot coolant flows through it, and air blows over it to provide heat to the passenger compartment.
    Josh Sirota
    ITR '99 BMW Z3 Coupe

  12. #72
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    Why would someone want hot air into their cars, Isn't hot enough without it?

    (Thanks Josh)
    Efrain N Alers
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE86ITA View Post
    Why would someone want hot air into their cars, Isn't hot enough without it?

    (Thanks Josh)


    Sounds like someone needs to take a trip to Fargo in December, eh? Jeez-Louise it's cold, too cold to snow even. I've spent a couple of winter months in Bismark, so I know this first hand....

    James
    STU BMW Z3 2.5liter

  14. #74
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    Thumbs up heater or hater

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3_GoCar View Post


    Sounds like someone needs to take a trip to Fargo in December, eh? Jeez-Louise it's cold, too cold to snow even. I've spent a couple of winter months in Bismark, so I know this first hand....

    James
    Thanks James:
    But been there done that, I was trying to make a point. We are now SCCA in PR and what sence would it make here south Florida, Texas or southern California to have a heater core in our cars?

    Ok I grant you it is an item that could make an impact on comfort and on a rainy day but aside from that once it is full of coolant it could weight a few unwanted pounds.

    Don't try to bring that point whenever you guys come down to race as everyone will laugh on your face.
    Efrain N Alers
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  15. #75
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    We understand the southern perspective here in NC. Racing in June/July/August can be brutal.

    The real issue here is that our rules are based on limited modifications to the cars to make them raceable. Over the last 20 years, we have made -- in rare cases -- exceptions to the original rule set to allow additional modifications where those changes were necessary to deal with advancing technology, etc.

    There is just no real reason to depart from the "keep it stock" aspect of IT racing with the heater core. Less weight/don't want coolant in the cabin, etc., not enough in my view. Not even close.

    If you don't want to use the heater core, fine, just plug the lines. But no compelling reason to remove it and once we do then we get a 1000 requests to remove other parts because "they aren't necessary."
    NC Region
    1980 ITS Triumph TR8

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knestis View Post
    The rules grew from a philosophy that said, "Do the minimum stuff required to make a stock street car ready for racing." There's no modification cheaper than "no modification."

    K
    True, but what really irritates me is the addition of all kinds of stuff that make it more of a real race car, while ignoring all the cheap/free stuff that would also make the cars more fun. Cases in point, you have to keep your heater core and washer bottle, but you can run coil-overs and a custom ecu. Class philosophy my a$$. Seems to me, the club leadership can't make up their mind what they want, so we have the ever changing mishmash that pleases very few. To me its simple: Allow stuff that reduces weight and costs little or nothing to do, and prohibit the expensive stuff - adjustable shocks, coilovers, ecu mods....... That does more to keep costs in check, and you can still get a light car that puts less stress on the components (thus helping them last longer)... I just wish they would leave well enough alone already.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinnetti View Post
    True, but what really irritates me is the addition of all kinds of stuff that make it more of a real race car, while ignoring all the cheap/free stuff that would also make the cars more fun. Cases in point, you have to keep your heater core and washer bottle, but you can run coil-overs and a custom ecu. Class philosophy my a$$. Seems to me, the club leadership can't make up their mind what they want, so we have the ever changing mishmash that pleases very few. To me its simple: Allow stuff that reduces weight and costs little or nothing to do, and prohibit the expensive stuff - adjustable shocks, coilovers, ecu mods....... That does more to keep costs in check, and you can still get a light car that puts less stress on the components (thus helping them last longer)... I just wish they would leave well enough alone already.
    Initial caveat and background info going in. I'm one of the club leaders (ITAC member) that can't make up his mind and has created the mishmash that pleases few.....(oh, and so is Kirk)

    Where to start....

    First, Kirk hit many of my points below...but.........

    The term "real race car" is always determined by one's own outlook. And usually, a car just below yours in stature (whatever that is) isn't a "real race car"....the term always makes me laugh. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm RACING my car, and I want to beat everyone in my class. If you want to tell me it's not a "real race car", well, I'll be polite with my response, but lets just say I think that the term is just mental masturbation.

    "Pleases very few", you say? Interesting, but if the IT category numbers were compared to any other category in the club, I bet it would be near, or at the top...IT is pretty darn popular. Polls have shown that the ruleset (not too much, not too little) and class stability are the main reasons subscribers have chosen the category. Chronic malcontents can always find stuff to whine about, but that's true anywhere.

    I really fail to see how removing a heater core, (weighing all of two pounds, centrally located) will make the car "more fun" .. Come on, you're just checking to see if we're reading aren't you?

    See Kirks point below for the real scoop on how ALLOWING things is actually CHEAPER, but let me add some history and a couple of points.

    1- When IT first came to light, Fuel injected cars were very very rare. The rules allowed all cars to adjust ignition, (duh, right? LOL) timing and dwell, as well as carb jetting. Cars were classified based on the expected gains from such tuning. Now, along come FI cars. But, how do those guys get the same allowances the carb guys get? In the beginning, they didn't. Of course, they had to do something....custom or upgraded chips, as other standard racing modifications could cause the engines to run improperly. Here's the key phrase for you: Technology advancements drive rule changes more than any other factor. The club had no choice but to allow ECU chip changes. Well, that sounds good and all, but not all "chips" were just "chips". Some designs needed piggyback boards and so on. So, the club adapted again, and allowed anything that fit in the stock box. Nice try, but, that was, to be blunt, one of the worst rules IT has seen. Of course, some boxes were large enough to allow full blown standalone ECUs, and there were some racers well heeled enough that MoTeCs started being installed.
    Bottom line was that it was a lopsided rule. Some cars couldn't fit anything, (you're screwed) some could fit everything, (whoo hoo!) and some could only fit the ultra expensive. (Oh well, I'm broke, but it could be worse).

    1A- Class philosophy lesson: Contrary to your opinion... class philosophy DOES exist, (and it has nothing to do with your backside) and when technology changes, so must the category, or it will cease to be relevant. But, it must change in such a way to treat all cars as equally as possible. Open ECUs do just that. No longer is anyone bound by the artificial limits of their box capacity or their wallet. Allowing more options makes it cheaper, and fairer for all.

    2- Coilovers, camber plates and the like actually make racing cheaper. Ask the Touring guys what they spend on dampers, because they are bound to stock springs by the rules. They spend THOUSANDS to get dampers that add spring rate.........when they could have used a $50 coil spring. Camber plates? Spend a few bucks on camber plates, and save yourself thousands on tires with corded shoulders and full depth inside tread. And so on. And on. (See Kirks post below)

    Allow stuff that reduces weight and costs little or nothing to do, and prohibit the expensive stuff - adjustable shocks, coilovers, ecu mods....... That does more to keep costs in check, and you can still get a light car that puts less stress on the components (thus helping them last longer)... I just wish they would leave well enough alone already.
    Come on now, do you REALLY think that removing a 2 pound heater core and a 1 pound washer bottle are going to make your car last longer? Do the math for me ok? Really, I want to see how that works. Just like three pounds is going to change the "fun to drive" factor. Show me that math too, while you're at it. And I guess you're living on fixed income, because I have to tell you that removing my heater core is going to cost me money...either I pay someone to do it, or I lose time ($, family time, or time that could be spent improving some other aspect of my life) and do it myself. (Of course, I think it would be idiotic to do it in and of itself, so i won't lose a minute or a dime over it...)

    Leave well enough alone you say?
    Done.
    Heater cores and washer bottles stay.
    Last edited by lateapex911; 07-21-2008 at 03:29 AM.
    Jake Gulick


    CarriageHouse Motorsports
    for sale: 2003 Audi A4 Quattro, clean, serviced, dark green, auto, sunroof, tan leather with 75K miles.
    IT-7 #57 RX-7 race car
    Porsche 1973 911E street/fun car
    BMW 2003 M3 cab, sun car.
    GMC Sierra Tow Vehicle
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    lateapex911(at)gmail(dot)com


  18. #78
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    Sayre PA USA 45 Miles from Watkins Glen
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    Thumbs up No Heater Core Today

    Heck today no heater core needed. The Nice Ice vest I have for sale would be good!!
    Tom Weaver: Logistics & Technical Support Manager IE truck driver for 1986 RX-7 ITS #63. "Diesel Haulin' Rotary" 2005 Dodge 2500 Quad Cab The Hemi has retired "Long Live the Hemi" Bill Weaver Driver- 2004 NYSRRC John Chave Award. 2006 & 2013 ITS NYSRRC Champion!. Truck Driver Named Glen Region Worker of the Year 2008.Located 45 miles southeast of Watkins Glen in Sayre PA.

  19. #79
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    >> ... adjustable shocks, coilovers, ecu mods. ...

    To appropriate your term, "leadership my a$$."

    "Leadership" does the easy thing, 9 out of 10 times - that being what will get them the least grief from membership. You've got nobody to blame but your fellow IT racers for everything you're complaining about.

    All three of the allowances you list have similar histories: What was thought to be a simple modification was pushed to the limit by a few early adopters, gained popularity, became the accepted norm absent any early questions of compliance, and was subsequently codified because it was too painful to go backward on them - particularly when the new technologies became more affordable than the ones they replaced.

    If you think coilovers are more expensive than having custom springs wound for stock-style struts, think again. If you think Megasquirt is more expensive than the shoehorn (whatevertheheck) into the stock box - wrong. If you for one minute believe that deep-pockets racers wouldn't have multiple sets of non-adjustable shocks rather than pimpy double-adjustable Konis, you need to come to a SE or NE IT race where people are pushing the envelope.

    And would you have taken away the precursor technologies or just the current ones? Do you want anyone with FI to run stock parts and settings only? Are resistors OK to change input values? What about chip changes? Where do you draw the line?

    At the end of the day, are you REALLY advocating for not having those allowances or are you using them as rationale for more? Just because some of the horses have gotten out of the barn, doesn't mean we shouldn't close the doors because those "easy, cheap" things are just the first step to the next round of things you'll be unhappy with.

    K

  20. #80
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    May 2002
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    Castro Valley, CA
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    If I recall correctly, a lot of cars that were eligible in the early days of IT had air conditioning as a dealer installed option. Makes sense to allow it's removal, since policing what is dealer vs factory installed would be, um, difficult. Remember that only factory installed items are technically legal. That's why dealer installed wings or bigger rims are not allowed.
    As an avid motorcyclist who uses fog-x regularly in my helmet, I can testify that fog-x saturates and fogs up when it is really wet!
    My 'defroster' (no ac...) with a plugged heater core clears my windshield just fine.
    I would never run without a defrost fan. As for the heater core, I can go either way... Removing it is a lot of work for 2 lbs.

    Tak
    29 ITA SFR SCCA

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