ensuring legal cars

[Eagle7]

David,

I think the point about your cage issue is simple: It's an annual tech issue. It's not a post-race compliance issue. Cages are supposed to be evaluated and certified prior to even hitting the track. It SHOULDN'T have anything to do with week-to-week compliance.

Not sure I buy this. In my experience, tech doesn't care if it's illegal as long as its safe. They'll check the top of the halo joints for a complete weld, but don't care if your mounting plates are too large. It's hard for me to believe they would flunk you at your annual if you had illegally removed material to make a safe cage.

[RacerBowie]

Andy, your correct with the annual tech of cages.

Bill, you are good at running your mouth but not very good at reading. Be careful up on your soap box.

Raymound, after my last post I remembered when JohnRW got all over me about illegal/legal of roll cages. Hmm, IIRC the two of you are from the NE Division apparently with all tegether different views of roll cages.

Could you possibly be any more of an ass on the internet? Seriously?

I can't put you on "ignore" because of your moderator status, but you keep popping up in otherwise productive threads with your poor attitude and your repetitive harpings on this perceived Miata cage issue. You were just offered a great way, in your region even, to actually DO something about this issue you keep whining about. Instead you choose to try to belittle the person who made the suggestion to you.

I keep coming back to this site because I feel it is important to stay up to date with the happenings in the category in which I race. But every time I have to deal with your attitude while reading through a thread I become that much more likely to just unplug. I'm sure the community here wouldn't miss me, as I don't add a whole lot to this forum, but I think that's a shame.

Maybe I'll just revert back to getting my IT news at the racetrack.

[JLawton]

Let's be honest with ourselves. There are a lot of limiting factors to how fast we are at this level. Driver ability, tire quality, engine prep, etc. The only way to really make a difference in performance with illegal items is to do lots of little things or cams/compression/etc.

If you see a lot of little things, talk to the guy. Which is what I think happens most of the time .

For the things that make a BIG difference it's difficult inspect. Not many people are willing to cough up $5,000 to have an engin torn apart. You never realy know if it's good driving, a well built engine or illegal pistons. All of us working on a small budget better be damned sure they'll find somthing illegal before they write a protest. Right?

What we had done in our protest is get a group together to soften the financial blow if we're wrong.

The only way to keep the illegal cars out is to have tech tear down engines (like the ARRC) or make it easier (less costly) to protest. Do we tack on an extra "compliance fee" to pay tech inspectors? How are the low budget guys going to rebuild their engine before the next race? If it's too easy to protest do we end up with a lot of protests that are found compliant?

No easy solutions.....

[planet6racing]

Bill, you are good at running your mouth but not very good at reading. Be careful up on your soap box.

Exactly what points have I misread? I've even included the quotes of YOUR statements that exhibit your point.

And, since you are saying that Raymond and I are on soap boxes, perhaps you should look under your feet.

[planet6racing]

I'm sure the community here wouldn't miss me, as I don't add a whole lot to this forum, but I think that's a shame.

I'd miss you, Bowie. Who else would talk about what beer to bring to the ARRC? Oh, wait, probably EVERYBODY on this board!!

[gran racing]

or cams/compression/etc.

And unfortunately on some cars it is quite a job to even get a cam out. I was quoted 10 hours in labor for a BMW 2002 which has several aftermarket cams available that provide fantastic gains. The complexity and costs associated with protests sure do make self-policing a challenge. How often are mechanical protests actually done in IT? I think it's fairly rare.

Yeah, I'd pay a compliance fee and deal with having to learn how to take my car apart and put it back together once in a while.

[GKR_17]

And unfortunately on some cars it is quite a job to even get a cam out. I was quoted 10 hours in labor for a BMW 2002 which has several aftermarket cams available that provide fantastic gains. The complexity and costs associated with protests sure do make self-policing a challenge. How often are mechanical protests actually done in IT? I think it's fairly rare.

Yeah, I'd pay a compliance fee and deal with having to learn how to take my car apart and put it back together once in a while.

You can check lift without pulling the cam. Of course it also helps when "Schrick 292" is stamped on it. That car was 6 seconds slower when it came back, though they were doing more than cams...

If you're looking at 02's check the distributor (it should have a connector for the vacuum advance). The vast majority of ITB 2002's I've seen run the tii distributor which is only legal in ITA.

[pballance]

So to build on one of Kirk’s comments what can be done to help make sure IT cars are compliant.

As a newcomer I welcome and and all checks of my car. My local scrutineer went over the cage thoroughly and deemed it safe.

If anyone sees anything that is wrong, help me get it corrected as I would not knowingly do something illegal. I know what that is about as well. Back in the day I crewed for an IMSA RS car that I knew the engine, valve train, and fueling systems were prepped beyond the rules. Something about having to trailer the car away from the track just to adjust valves

I am in favor of of the SOLO style open hood/trunk/hatch/remove wheel impound. It is a cheap effective way to deter violations. I also suggest that we all post our minimum weights on the car even though the CRB said not necessary and that we all roll over the scales at the end of the race.

I am also willing to contribute to a complaince fund.

And SteveE, I have(and had) my nomex socks!!!

[shwah]

In the spirit of the - easy to spot cheats - is there a simple way to see the difference between the VW Motronic injectors that belong in a 2.0, and the 'alternate size' ones that some have 'tested'?

Of course this would apply to all cars with fuel injection - is there an easy way to verify the correct injectors? Best I can think of is removal and part number confirmation....

[Z3_GoCar]

You can check lift without pulling the cam. Of course it also helps when "Schrick 292" is stamped on it. That car was 6 seconds slower when it came back, though they were doing more than cams...

If you're looking at 02's check the distributor (it should have a connector for the vacuum advance). The vast majority of ITB 2002's I've seen run the tii distributor which is only legal in ITA.

In the spirit of the - easy to spot cheats - is there a simple way to see the difference between the VW Motronic injectors that belong in a 2.0, and the 'alternate size' ones that some have 'tested'?

Of course this would apply to all cars with fuel injection - is there an easy way to verify the correct injectors? Best I can think of is removal and part number confirmation....

In the spirit of Grafton's post I'd suggest looking for the ones that say "RC Injectors" first. Next check part numbers on the side of the Bosch injector. I can say this because the injectors currently in my manifold say "RC" in bold red letters.

One other thing I want to bring up. I understand that BMW makes a group N cam, which is designed along the lines of the best Miata spec cam. Basically, it spintrons to the best of the factory cam specs, it's not as potent as the "Schrick 292" but better still better than what's in 90% of the factory motors.

James

[ddewhurst]

***Could you possibly be any more of an ass on the internet?***

Bowie, this ^ is the arroganace of someone that obviously could care less about the wrirren rules. Read the first post of this thread. In so many words it says. What can be done to help make sure IT cars are compliant. Are you suggesting we use selective rules enforcement to meet compliance of only the rules you like or want enforced?

I respect items I have read of your racing history & current racing. Are you of the judgement that anything & everthing is legal when fabing a ITA Miata/Spec Miat roll cages? I was on a trip to the S.E. racing back in March & I would say from my observations there is good reason for concern about what people are doing for the implementation of IT/Spec Miata roll cages.

When you see my name just click on by & don't read.

[RSTPerformance]

Actually I thought you were there to congratulate us, check out our cars a bit, poke fun at me for my poor attempt at drawing fuel - never did the not worthy thing cross my mind.

I didn't specify you are the one that made me feel that way I would go to impound (I think I have) to say congrats even if I wasn't racing!!!

Raymond, maybe if people had paid some attention with the Production cars in the 70's they would not be what they are today. Wasn't there a very large stink a few years ago in the NE about Miata roll cages. Please remember the crap that happens in your Division with roll cages before you get up on your soap box. The soap box position seems to be trendy in the NE. Is your roll cage illegal & my comments burn a bit. You would not be the only car in the NE who has an illegal roll cage. Have you lost track of the IT rules changes over the past couple years.

David-

My cage is 100% legal... no worries at all on that one! As for the past NE miata cage stuff I wish I was never involved.

Lets get back on the overall topic... In my opinion the biggest issue is the cost associated with making a protest, otherwise I would have done a few already.

Raymond

[Andy Bettencourt]

Lets get back on the overall topic... In my opinion the biggest issue is the cost associated with making a protest, otherwise I would have done a few already.

Raymond

I am going to disagree here a little. I like the fact that the protestor has to have some skin in the game. If you know something is illegal, and you find it, you aren't out the money. If you accuse and you are wrong, you pay up. Wish our judicial system was similar....

[Knestis]

In the spirit of the - easy to spot cheats - is there a simple way to see the difference between the VW Motronic injectors that belong in a 2.0, and the 'alternate size' ones that some have 'tested'? ...

I'm old and infirm but I THINK I remember something about them actually being a different color...? I've never seen one so I don't know.

K

[gran racing]

I like the fact that the protestor has to have some skin in the game.

Agreed. It's comforting to know that if someone protests a person the costs will be covered assuming they're legal.

On the other side, I too have decided not to file a couple of protests due to the costs involved. I like how you guys did it by getting a group of people to split potential costs, but haven't found it easy to assemble a group. It's usually "yeah, I'd love to protest that car" which turns into "well, I didn't mean actually file a protest."

[JohnRW]

BTW wasn't you back in post 24 that said there was no mandatory impound time?

Context, my friend...a "minimum" time isn't the same as a "mandatory" time (as in a "mandatory maximum").

Exec Stewards and Deputy Execs, in reviewing Supps in advance, DO have certain authorities and DON'T have other authorities. If your Tech folks have time issues, it the sanctioning Region's right to specify whatever is GCR-legal in the Supps for impound, and it's outside the Exec Stewards responsibility to over-ride it. Once the event has started, the SOM's can change any Supps language. Some Execs and Deputy Execs have been sticking there noses into business they have no business attempting to manage. Their responsibilities are spelled out in the SCCA Operations Manual, and "telling a Region how long Impound should last" ISN'T one of them.

[JohnRW]

Raymound, after my last post I remembered when JohnRW got all over me about illegal/legal of roll cages. Hmm, IIRC the two of you are from the NE Division apparently with all tegether different views of roll cages.

David - you are simply "tilting at windmills". You have repeatedly claimed that you know of illegal SM roll cages, but you haven't done a damn thing, other than whine about it, both here and to the CRB.

You expect the CRB to investigate and craft new language to address a couple of cars that you have an issue with, because you don't have the stones to protest them yourself. Aside from the obvious issue, the CRB has better things to spend its time on than micro-managing a couple of cars in your odd little corner of CENDiv. Grow some stones. It's $25, and you get it back if you're right...or even if your views were "well-founded but wrong". Pony up, kid.

Apparently, you can't be bothered to protest any of these cages you claim are illegal and "nothing is being done about", although it is clearly a Competitor's responsibility to protest compliance issues.

You know how the issue of cages got resolved in the NE ? A competitor protested, and the protest was heard, decided, and upheld. That's how it's supposed to work.

[ddewhurst]

***David - you are simply "tilting at windmills". You have repeatedly claimed that you know of illegal SM roll cages, but you haven't done a damn thing, other than whine about it, both here and to the CRB.***

John, I sent pictures identifying chassis members competitors are tourching/cutting out to make room for their front down tubes (you want the same pictures?) along with naming the cage manufacture. I also requested the CRB reword a couple particular loose loop hole sentences by rule number in the ITCS & the SMCS. That John is what would be called proactive. Continiously protesting illegal cages is reactive. The fact they the CRB, ITAC, SMA choose to do nothing falls on someone elses side of the fence. Other than the fact that rules continue to slip/slid I could care less what people do.

Next time you travel to the S.E. look at as many ITA/SM roll cages as you can then report what you viewed. I looked in early March this year at cars in the S.E. & what I saw was flat out illegal & silly to boot.

Ask Andy who fabs (or who did fab) a roll cage that is illegal & he advertises it to be SCCA legal in SportsCar.

[Andy Bettencourt]

***David - you are simply "tilting at windmills". You have repeatedly claimed that you know of illegal SM roll cages, but you haven't done a damn thing, other than whine about it, both here and to the CRB.***

John, I sent pictures identifying chassis members competitors are tourching/cutting out to make room for their front down tubes (you want the same pictures?) along with naming the cage manufacture. I also requested the CRB reword a couple particular loose loop hole sentences by rule number in the ITCS & the SMCS. That John is what would be called proactive. Continiously protesting illegal cages is reactive. The fact they the CRB, ITAC, SMA choose to do nothing falls on someone elses side of the fence. Other than the fact that rules continue to slip/slid I could care less what people do.

Next time you travel to the S.E. look at as many ITA/SM roll cages as you can then report what you viewed. I looked in early March this year at cars in the S.E. & what I saw was flat out illegal & silly to boot.

Ask Andy who fabs (or who did fab) a roll cage that is illegal & he advertises it to be SCCA legal in SportsCar.

David,

I think you can name the name if you feel the need to. Here is the final point for you: The SMAC and ITAC DO NOT manage the cage specs. It's a CRB issue so please stop making it out that they aren't doing anything for you. It's a local tech issue IMHO on enforcement. Help your people.

I just don't get why you have such a hair across your rear on this. You have a legal cage? I bet you do. There are a ton of us on this BB that do. Unless you think you are loosing races due to cage design, I just don't get it. Maybe you feel the SCCA is endorsing these cage types or something. Not sure.

It's a dead issue on this BB, with the ITAC and the SMAC so you need not keep harping on it me thinks. Anyone else agree?

[Ron Earp]

Isn't this an IT Forum? David races a Spec Miata. Maybe the complaints would go further on the Spec Miata Forum?