ensuring legal cars

[dickita15]

So to build on one of Kirk’s comments what can be done to help make sure IT cars are compliant.
Is it something that can be done with the way the rules are written?
Is there a way to make the protest process more user friendly for both parties?
Should tech be more proactive in enforcement with the additional staffing and training that would require?
Is it really a problem or should I just shut up and race?

[JeffYoung]

Dick, good questions.

My perceptions from my lillipad in my little pond here in the NCR region of the SEDiv:

I believe that my class is mostly legal cars. All of us probably have something here or there that is not legal. I had brake ducts mounted improperly and am in the process of correcting a distributor issue. But, in almost all cases, in ITS anyway, I don't think we have big time performance enhancing cheating going on. I would say it is mostly policed "internally" with a friendly chat with someone that has something illegal and that has worked decently so far.

[trhoppe]

In a conversation with Kirk I suggested a VTS for every car in IT. List out those specs that aren't in the Service Manual that we want to care about. Sure it will be some effort, but it fixes it "right".

Only write VTS's for requested cars. That way you don't have to do every car eligible for IT.

Once you have real specs, devote $10-15 of every entry fee to pay someone to actually enforce the cars and check the specs. Much like in SM.

-Tom

[JoshS]

So to build on one of Kirk’s comments what can be done to help make sure IT cars are compliant.
Is it something that can be done with the way the rules are written?
Is there a way to make the protest process more user friendly for both parties?
Should tech be more proactive in enforcement with the additional staffing and training that would require?
Is it really a problem or should I just shut up and race?

Well, I think it's entirely unreasonable to expect "tech" to find things on a car that you think you know about. That option makes no sense to me.

The only way to have something you know is illegal on one of your competitors looked at is to tell the club, and the process for that is called a protest. If for some reason the process is too difficult, then we should clean it up (but I don't think it's very difficult at all.)

That stewards dissuade entrants from filing protests (rumor, I haven't experienced this) is a problem. Protests should be encouraged, not discouraged, and there should be no shame in filing one. We should all (including those protested) see the big picture and understand that legal cars makes everything better, and PROVING that a car is legal is actually a feather in one's cap.

[lateapex911]

Josh, i think Dick was asking open minded questions. He's a tech inspector, by the way.

I think it is actually cool to have open hood impounds after qualifying, for example. Walk around, check things out. Sure, you can't SEE the illegal cam, but you CAN hear people talking about solid engine mounts and you can see illegal ram air or cold air openings.

Or illegal batteries, or a host of other little cheats. And sometimes thats not the only thing in there...

...and tech can go and do other things, like weigh cars..that's not going to require "model specific" knowledge is it? Maybe after qualifying, LOL. Might be funny to see what people run for weights. Some folks have options.

Bottom line, I've seen lot's over the years, and while in many cases cheaters took themselves out, in others they didn't. Yup, i know, write the paper...but if you have ever done a tear down protest, you know it's a lot of work, and your racing will suffer if you don't have a crew to do everything. (Ask me how I know...) If there are certain things tech can do to help push legality, even if they aren't 100% successful, it's worth considering.

[Knestis]

Another good suggestion that came up in the discussion Tom mentions is enhancing the distinction between "tech" and "compliance." Start by having different people doing the two jobs, the first being concerned ONLY with safety equipment and entry eligibility - the pre-race stuff. The compliance people's job wouldn't start until (1) the checkers fall, or (2) someone files a request for action prior to that time. Have one steward whose only job is compliance, so he/she is not pooped out at the end of the day when the work starts.

We'd also have to make sure those folks have the tools and resources to do the job. The enhanced VTS idea seems sound, the more I think about it. We have the stupid "factory service manual" rule, which gets extended in interpretation as meaning that if a value isn't in that book, there's no requirement that it be maintained as stock. This has been Travis' ongoing point about the SM cam rule and I may be to the point where I agree that we need to document all of the measurements that we care about. MAY need to. I still think that a cultural shift is possible, that puts the onus on Captain Clever to demonstrate where he got his "replacement" camshaft, that anyone can get one, and that it is in fact stock. But that cultural shift is unlikely and probably harder work in the long run than building the library of specs.

We've talked before about a searchable database of stewards' and COA's decisions, that could form a basis for actual case law and persistent precedent. I could build that system in a weekend using an open-source content management system like we used on http://www.rsicommunity.org.

We should also codify the solo-style "parc expose" open-hood, -trunk, -doors, one side on jackstands deal. If we all knew we'd have every other entrant and crew member crawling up our respective orifices, the culture WOULD change. (Thanks again Tom, Tara, Grant, and Bowie.)

K

EDIT - and to add, not only is this something we can do with the current rules, we should absolutely get over the idea that we can improve compliance by CHANGING rules. I know I'm a broken record on this but it's fundamental.

[wbp]

If you are running Regional races in the SEDIV, I believe you can expect to have two items, in addition to weight, checked on each impounded car. The Chief of Tech and Chief Steward will prepare a list of what will be checked on each class before the event. If Tech is very short on people, one of the two items may have to be something really quick to check.
What do you think of having the Chief Steward require hoods of all cars in impound be open?

[lateapex911]

What do you think of having the Chief Steward require hoods of all cars in impound be open?

Done!
And why not o[en trunks and hatches too...?

[jjjanos]

What do you think of having the Chief Steward require hoods of all cars in impound be open?

I think it's a great idea. I also think that a minimum of 2 groups each weekend should have an IMPOUND ALL with the same procedure. Run everybody over the scales and hoods up. One of the groups could even be done on Saturday.

[Knestis]

I think that maybe, when Dick asked the question, he was imagining that maybe things don't have to be done exactly the way they currently are. If the answer to "How can we do things differently...?" is "We can't," then there's no point in having the conversation. We do what we've always done and we'll get what we've always got.

Or put differently, saying "We can't do it differently" is pretty much the same thing as saying, "I'm fine with the way things are."

K

[pballance]

So to build on one of Kirk’s comments what can be done to help make sure IT cars are compliant.

As a newcomer I welcome and and all checks of my car. My local scrutineer went over the cage thoroughly and deemed it safe.

If anyone sees anything that is wrong, help me get it corrected as I would not knowingly do something illegal. I know what that is about as well. Back in the day I crewed for an IMSA RS car that I knew the engine, valve train, and fueling systems were prepped beyond the rules. Something about having to trailer the car away from the track just to adjust valves

I am in favor of of the SOLO style open hood/trunk/hatch/remove wheel impound. It is a cheap effective way to deter violations. I also suggest that we all post our minimum weights on the car even though the CRB said not necessary and that we all roll over the scales at the end of the race.

I am also willing to contribute to a complaince fund.

And SteveE, I have(and had) my nomex socks!!!