ensuring legal cars

[planet6racing]

***Have people support tech at ANUAL TECH who KNOW wht's under a dash on paticular cars.***

Bill, read twice then post. ANUAL TECH gets the illegal roll cages at the get go the first time they are looked at.

What are you saying? Are you saying that Annual tech is catching the problem, but then the driver makes changes after that? I stand by my statement. If all the cars are getting re-annualed (or teched like they are, anyway), you, as an inspector, have plenty of time to see this.

[jhooten]

Actually the says "in a fuel Line" ( http://www.scca.org/documents/Fastra...strack-mar.pdf top of page 8)

Do you have enough flow in the return line with power to the fuel pump and the engine not running to provide a sample? If you cannot fill the bottle in a "reasonable" amount of time should tech refer you to the CS for not giving a sample as requested?

Once again we have 30 minutes or less to obtain and test 21 samples befor the CS releases the cars from impound and to clear impound for the next run group. We can't give you twenty minutes to trickle a full bottle from your return line even if the rule allows the sample port to be located there.

What we have here is a conflict between the letter and the intent of the law. The proposed wording of the rule change was "in the fuel line between the fuel pump and the carburetors or fuel injection system. As written the rule allows you to install the sample port between the fuel tank and the fuel pump. Might cause some problems if you did it that way.

[MMiskoe]

That's not what the rule says. The sample port must be "located between the fuel tank and the carburetor(s) or fuel injectors". The return line meets that requirement. Or did I miss something in Fastrack?

The return line does not meet this requirement. The return line is just that, a return and is down stream of the carb/injectors so it is not between the pump & the injectors.

The return line is the smart place to put it for leaks etc, provided you can get the sample jar to fill fast enough.

As for rule compliance - tech needs more people. It is completely unreasonable to expect the 2 or 3 guys who are on duty for tech to weigh every car that comes off the track. Figure the run group is 30 cars x 1 minute each blows the entire 30 minute impound. And I doubt you can get 30 cars weighed in 30 minutes. Never mind thinking about checking gear ratios or cams. Random selection of cars would help, but leads to people feeling that they were singled out of the crowd.

It is also unlikely that tech will get enough people who are well versed in checking stuff. First off what do you have to measure against? What do you have to measure with? When was it last calibrated? This is not a slam against guys running tech, it is just the way it is. That's why good machine shops who build good engines and drivelines get big bucks for their efforts.

A pessimistic view, but a reality at this time.

Matt

[JohnRW]

Once again we have 30 minutes or less to obtain and test 21 samples befor the CS releases the cars from impound and to clear impound for the next run group. We can't give you twenty minutes to trickle a full bottle from your return line even if the rule allows the sample port to be located there.

Easy solution - don't release the cars. You can hold them for as long as necessary to complete any tests or examinations. There is no "mandatory" 30 minute rule at Impound. And the CS doesn't release the cars, the Chief of Tech does.

Just don't release them. Chief of Tech just tells CS that he's holding cars, and either CofT or CS tells T&S to hold results ("provisional" qualifying or results can be posted).

[GKR_17]

The return line does not meet this requirement. The return line is just that, a return and is down stream of the carb/injectors so it is not between the pump & the injectors.

The rule says tank, not pump. So the return line does meet the rule.

[GKR_17]

As written the rule allows you to install the sample port between the fuel tank and the fuel pump. Might cause some problems if you did it that way.

That could be a perfect spot if it's low enough for gravity feed. Low pressure, and out of the engine compartment.

[jjjanos]

The return line does not meet this requirement. The return line is just that, a return and is down stream of the carb/injectors so it is not between the pump & the injectors.

Fuel Line: A fuel line is a hose used to bring fuel from one point in a vehicle to another.

Is the line between the carbs/injectors and the tank?

Then its appearance is that of an mallard. It waddles like a mallard. It says quack.

It meets the definition and I think you will have to search long and hard to find a group of stewards who would bounce such a car.

The return line is the smart place to put it for leaks etc, provided you can get the sample jar to fill fast enough.

I found no reference in the GCR as to how quickly one must fill the specimen container.

Sorry, but that is the sort of thing that'll get tossed by the SoMs or overturned by the CoA and makes people P.O. about SCCA.

[jhooten]

Easy solution - don't release the cars. You can hold them for as long as necessary to complete any tests or examinations. There is no "mandatory" 30 minute rule at Impound. And the CS doesn't release the cars, the Chief of Tech does.

Just don't release them. Chief of Tech just tells CS that he's holding cars, and either CofT or CS tells T&S to hold results ("provisional" qualifying or results can be posted).

Not here he don't. The Tech Chief has to request permission from the CS to release impound unless the race has been designated as a no impound race. The GCR may not specify an impound time, the supps do. The first driver to go to the CS and whine that it has been 30 min and 1 sec and cars get released except for the ones being protested or held for an on track incident.

[Knestis]

I think that maybe, when Dick asked the question, he was imagining that maybe things don't have to be done exactly the way they currently are. If the answer to "How can we do things differently...?" is "We can't," then there's no point in having the conversation. We do what we've always done and we'll get what we've always got.

Or put differently, saying "We can't do it differently" is pretty much the same thing as saying, "I'm fine with the way things are."

K

[Knestis]

Why didn't all of you who like this idea write to the CRB in support of it when they asked for member input on it in Fastrack 10/06? ... 2. The CRB is considering allowing open visual inspections by competitors of vehicles at impound and invites input from the membership.

I'm embarrassed to admit that I almost never dig through the general GCR stuff in FasTrack. Thanks for pointing that out, Josh.

K

[RSTPerformance]

Dick-

Your in IT-7... Shut up and race!

Dave-

I have suggested it before... If were going to file a protest I would use all the resources available to me. I would probably follow this process:

0. (I say zero because I would have done this before even considering a protest). Talk to the driver/owner of the car in question.

1. Before the event Call a dealer (or two/three) and get a quote to replace the part in the vehicle (cam, crank, Piston, etc.). I think it would be unreasonable for any IT car to expect more of a bond than a dealership rate.

2. Post the car make/model and the item you intend to protest here on IT.com. Let the hundreds of other people on this site help you build the list of other parts to protest.

3. Maybe your posting will make a scare factor and the competitor will not race in races you enter or they might fix thier car. Even better they will bicker online with everyone and give us some entertainment.

4. When the car in question shows up at an event go file a protest. Bring your written quote from the dealer to help set the bond. Sign the check and wait for the results.

Seems simple enough to me.

David-

How many years have you been on this rollcage thing? Are these illigal cages unsafe or more safe? What exactly is the performance gain? Give it up already.

Fuel port people-

I think that the fuel sampling issue has a lot more problems then just getting the fuel. Lets figure out (in another thread) how to test the fuel first!

Impount all people-

I have been saying we need to do this for years. We don't need the stewards or tech to support this idea, just go to impound on your own even if you are not in the top 3 or whatever is required. I go directly to impoind 90% of the time even if I am not in the top 10. At the IT Fest (many of you went and didn't go to impound) my brother and I were the only ITB cars that were not in the top 3 and everyone looked at us. I felt you were all wondering what we were doing as we were not worthy of being in impound... as if you needed to earn your spot in impound. Its sad that we/you ask for something you can do without being told to do it.

All those that think tech and the stewards should enforce the rules-

Try memorizing all the rules for all the classes, nevermind all the individual car make/model differences in design & implementation of those rules (NOT JUST IT, ALL 30+ SCCA CLASSES). Its NOT possible no matter how many people you get and how much your willing to pay them. Professional racing (even the SCCA National Runoffs) have several people whom collectively are experts from all over the country. Localy you will never find that. We need to find a way to police ourselves, if you don't like that then run a spec class where "better" compliance checks are made.


Raymond "Sorry about my rants, I hope they don't come out wrong but they are just my thoughts...." Blethen

[Z3_GoCar]

I've done it at Waterford. Simply roll the car in gear a certain number of engine revolutions (1 or 2). Do it for two or three gears. The ratio of the distances traveled matches the ratio between the gears involved. Won't tell you exactly what ratios are in there, but it's the relative gearing that's important anyway. Takes a few folks to push it in gear, but it works out very accurately.

Won't work on a BMW with 11:1 compression. Even with stock compression I can't push start my car in 1st. Blame it on the rubber guibo too I guess.

James

[JohnRW]

Not here he don't. The Tech Chief has to request permission from the CS to release impound unless the race has been designated as a no impound race. The GCR may not specify an impound time, the supps do..

GCR says "minimum" impound of 30 minutes, unless specified in the Supps.

You have a region-specific problem of your own creation. If time is not sufficient, "Chief of Tech" needs to talk to "writer of Supps", or ask the Stewards of the Meet to change it "at the track".

[tderonne]

Won't work on a BMW with 11:1 compression. Even with stock compression I can't push start my car in 1st. Blame it on the rubber guibo too I guess.

James

Don't need to do 1st gear. Top couple will give you enough info. Worst case, pull the sparkplugs.

[gran racing]

I felt you were all wondering what we were doing as we were not worthy of being in impound...

Actually I thought you were there to congratulate us, check out our cars a bit, poke fun at me for my poor attempt at drawing fuel - never did the not worthy thing cross my mind.

I absolutely believe that there are ways for us to improve upon the protest process without a rules change. I know I already said this, but the majority of people I speak with are intimidated with the protest process and don't have an understanding of how to utilize the process.

[jhooten]

GCR says "minimum" impound of 30 minutes, unless specified in the Supps.

You have a region-specific problem of your own creation. If time is not sufficient, "Chief of Tech" needs to talk to "writer of Supps", or ask the Stewards of the Meet to change it "at the track".

Division actually. The Divisional Stewards approve the Supps and frown on deviations from the divisions standard template.

BTW wasn't you back in post 24 that said there was no mandatory impound time?

[ddewhurst]

Bill, when have you ever viewed a tech person EVER look behind a dash to view the roll cage?

***How many years have you been on this rollcage thing? Are these illigal cages unsafe or more safe? What exactly is the performance gain? Give it up already.***

Raymond, maybe if people had paid some attention with the Production cars in the 70's they would not be what they are today. Wasn't there a very large stink a few years ago in the NE about Miata roll cages. Please remember the crap that happens in your Division with roll cages before you get up on your soap box. The soap box position seems to be trendy in the NE. Is your roll cage illegal & my comments burn a bit. You would not be the only car in the NE who has an illegal roll cage. Have you lost track of the IT rules changes over the past couple years.

Not to drag Dick into this post but he did say something to the effect of: What can be done to help make sure IT cars are compliant. < I would say he means legal to the written GCR words.

[Andy Bettencourt]

David,

I think the point about your cage issue is simple: It's an annual tech issue. It's not a post-race compliance issue. Cages are supposed to be evaluated and certified prior to even hitting the track. It SHOULDN'T have anything to do with week-to-week compliance.

Hoods and trunks up just like autox. Have been trying to get that done for years.

[planet6racing]

Have people support tech at anual tech who KNOW wht's under a dash on paticular cars. Example I KNOW whats under the dash of Miatas & I KNOW by looking at the front down tube location along with a couple other key items if the down tubes are legal or illegal.

Bill, when have you ever viewed a tech person EVER look behind a dash to view the roll cage?

David:

My posts have been directly against the first quote. You are claiming to "be an expert" and to be able to tell just "...by looking at the front down tube location along with a couple other key items..." to determine legality. From the way it reads, you could be working in tech and be able to tell, without looking behind the dash to determine legality. If so, why don't you volunteer and do so? I know Dennis, Mark, and Vern would all appreciate the help...

If you're not actually going to do something (e.g. Protest), then stop whining about it. Poop or get off the pot. You should have your SM done by now, so you really don't have any more excuses for not being there and not protesting. It even sounds like the protest bond will be minimal...

[ddewhurst]

Andy, your correct with the annual tech of cages.

Bill, you are good at running your mouth but not very good at reading. Be careful up on your soap box.

Raymound, after my last post I remembered when JohnRW got all over me about illegal/legal of roll cages. Hmm, IIRC the two of you are from the NE Division apparently with all tegether different views of roll cages.