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Thread: IT National? Anyone else have this experience at a driver's meeting this year?

  1. #501
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    So, here's what I think might happen if IT were to "go National." I'm going to use a completely different set of assumptions than Jake - that NOTHING else changes, except that the IT classes get added to the National list and there's some process in place to allow the best-subscribed classes to qualify for the RubOffs (including IT). Problem is, YOU need to decide if you think they are "good" or "bad," based on your priorities and values:

    ** Some current Regional drivers with competitive streaks will step up and start doing Nationals

    ** Some of those will make the extra effort in an attempt to qualify for the RubOffs

    ** Enough will do so AND make the trek to the National championships that the IT classes will be better subscribed than some of the "legacy" classes

    ** Many current Regional drivers will decide to continue doing exactly what they have

    ** Some National drivers currently in other classes will make the switch to IT cars

    ** Those drivers, along with the most dedicated Regional switchers, will raise the quality of preparation, testing, and tuning among the cream of the IT cars in the US.

    ** Some of those top-shelf driver/car combinations will find their way to Regional events, shifting the balance of power enough that the drivers who have stuck with Regional programs will face additional competition

    ** As preparation levels at the front of the grids increases, the middle of the pack will follow, with performance required to finish at any given place increasing marginally

    ** IT grid sizes at Regionals will decrease slightly in the short term, then increase consistently as popularity and the lure of National status convinces racers to switch from other Regional classes

    ** Increased competitive pressures will increase the relative cost of maintaining any pre-National level of competitiveness, the greatest increases being felt in the regions with traditionally low IT participation numbers but OK National programs

    ** Pro shops will begin to pay more attention to IT cars (e.g., BSI might revisit the logic of getting out of the VW business for Miatas), increasing the availability of go-fast parts, broadening the knowledge base, and increasing competition - all of which should serve to decrease the cost associated with making particular improvements to IT cars

    ** Increased competitive urges will increase the frequency of protests, first at National events, then increasingly at the front of the grid in Regionals

    ** Increased attention from the scrutineers will create trickle-down motivation for drivers of IT cars in both programs, and at all levels of preparation, to pay more attention to legality - correcting issues that might historically have been ignored

    ** Conversely, additional competitive pressure - particularly in the short run - will increase the chance that a small number of IT competitors (perhaps most likely new ones) will be tempted to push the limits and cheat

    ** It will take some time before these previous two forces stabilize, and a cheating equilibrium is achieved but the net result is that IT cars will be less illegal, particularly at the front of the grid

    ** There will inevitably be disagreements that require appeals to resolve, which will establish and clarify the operational interpretations of the ITCS

    ** Some members (including tech inspectors and stewards, and even board members, in addition to drivers) will desire additional "clarification" of written rules, as a result of these disagreements

    ** Some rules will be corrected, following recommendation by the ITAC and action by the boards, where existing language is found to be unclear or conflicting

    ** In other cases (few initially but increasingly more as time goes by) the ITAC will recommend no changes to the rules, recognizing that interpretation and enforcement are beyond their purview

    ** The CRB will generally support and implement ITAC recommendations, barring any really radical realignment of either body

    ** There exists a chance that, if substantial turnover in either body were to occur, prevailing sentiments and first principles might change enough that those bodies might disagree

    ** Substantial conflict might result, causing unforeseen outcomes and discontent among IT entrants

    ** Some manufacturers, tire makers, and aftermarket parts suppliers will offer contingency prizes to IT cars, where they were not previously available - some simply because IT is now National (e.g., VW that already offers a sweeter deal to Nat'l entrants than Reg'l ones), but others because of the attractiveness (popularity and competitiveness) of IT

    ** A very small number will think that their commitment to contingency or other awards or sponsorship programs should afford them some special consideration in the rules, and will make requests for rules changes favorable to their positions, through the approved rule change process

    ** The ITAC will, for the foreseeable future, continue business as usual and will reject requests that are inconsistent with the current first principles of the category, that have made it as healthy as it is today

    ** In very rare instances, someone with a special interest (member/entrant, manufacturer representative, etc.) will think that they can use back-room connections to leverage rules changes in their favor

    ** Should this happen, the ITAC and IT entrants will mobilize to rise up against any individual promulgating this kind of behavior - the used food will hit the rotational air moving devices

    ** The RubOffs will be a better show, at least for a couple of days, as IT races bring out larger, deeper, more competitive fields than many existing classes
    ** Participation in several legacy National classes will decrease enough to make them weaker and even more vulnerable than they already are, hastening their demise

    ** Increased standards and expectations of levels of participation and competition will skew the curve enough that even if some National classes don't shrink, they will appear smaller by comparison

    ** Successes in the National program of IT-as-currently-constituted will influence other category committees and/or the Club Racing office to consider extending the formula to existing or replacement new categories, taking what is right about IT and increasing speed and tinkering potential through additional allowances

    ** Similarly, there is a small chance that IT rules will be extended (perhaps with some modifications) to a series like the World Challenge Touring series, pulling back the rules to a more restricted level

    ** This would further increase competitive pressures down through the category to National and Regional levels, if only to a small degree

    ** Some existing IT drivers would be unhappy enough about losing their relative competitive positions that they will decide to do something else

    ** Some will initially migrate to the smaller ponds of Production racing, modifying their existing IT cars to "move up" a category - they will face the harder decision eventually of whether to continue with that category when it either peters out or is dramatically changed under the guidance of its advisory committee and the boards

    ** Others will leave SCCA for NASA or other racing opportunities where they can be relatively more competitive for the same commitment

    ** Others will be unhappy emough about increased competition that they will choose to not worry about competition at all, moving instead to HPDE or TT type events

    ** Some drivers will quit IT blaming various changes, when in fact they would have been lost to existing forces influencing turnover anyway - primarily financial overextension - realizing that it's easier to blame [insert someone/something here] rather than their bad decision making for their departure

    ** Prices of used IT cars would increase with demand, regardless of how far the IT preparation rules are extended

    ** This would benefit those selling cars but increase this barrier to entry for new IT entrants

    ** Increase popularity and competitiveness will increase the potential for rough driving at the front of the grids, with the influence propagating gradually down through the field

    ** Competitors and stewards will be forced to deal with instances of this type of thing - at least initially - until a consensus level of acceptance is achieved

    ** At this point, IT ruffians will begin to suffer consequences for their actions, and the initial blip in on-track hooliganism will level out

    ** Increased popularity of and expectations for IT classes would create pressures on the weakest of those classes (ITC, most notably) to include newer cars

    ** Some scheme would be developed to accomplish this (e.g., "limited preparation" ITC)

    ** These pressures would not exist to the same degree in well-subscribed classes

    ** Similarly, it wouldn't take long for drivers wanting to experience higher levels of performance to push for another class above ITR - perhaps to accommodate AWD and/or turbo cars, in addition to those that are simply too powerful for the current R index

    ** R will have grown enough to convince the ITAC that the world is ready for another, faster class - they would recommend it to the CRB and it would be approved

    ** There is a small chance that this new class might oust the current WCGT class, creating a semi-pro series

    ** There is also a small chance that the performance level of these cars would be great enough to substantially increase the chance that someone would be critically hurt or killed in an on-track incident

    ** Were this to come about, additional pressure to increase the safety of IT cars (starting with the fastest class[es] perhaps) would come to bear (e.g., additional cage stiffening, crushable structures, new driver impact protection such as leg panels)

    I figure I've left something out but I really want another beer and they are all the way downstairs...

    K

    EDIT for spaciness.
    Last edited by Knestis; 05-08-2008 at 09:45 PM.

  2. #502
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    I am now blind.
    Andy Bettencourt
    New England Region 188967

  3. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Bettencourt View Post
    I am now blind.
    Your mother warned you about that.

    K

  4. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Bettencourt View Post
    I am now blind.
    Step away from the Kung Fu DVDs.

  5. #505
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    Also (and I can't put it into the above post because the system tells me it's TOO LONG - go figure)...

    ** The ITAC and membership will be forced to revisit the question of new technologies (e.g., ABS, dynamic stability control) in IT cars - a reality that we'll have to face anyway

    ** Make sure you insert "spend more money" everywhere you see "be more competitive" - it's implicit but I don't want anyone to accuse me of ignoring that reality

    K

    EDIT - AND the Dave G. reminded me that ANY change is disruptive, and will create angst and unhappiness for SOMEONE.
    Last edited by Knestis; 05-08-2008 at 09:54 PM.

  6. #506
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    OK..... I am back in the NO camp. I was all the way with you guys until he said insert SPEND MONEY!
    (Of course that was one of the sentences I could understand!)

    Nice job putting out what you think might happen. Some of it good some of it not good.
    Just depends on what people want.
    Mac Spikes
    Cresson, TX (Home of "The Original" MotorSport Ranch)
    "To hell with you Gen. Sheridan...I 'll take Texas!"

  7. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knestis View Post
    So, here's what I think might happen if IT were to "go National."
    "Might" is the operative word. Any or all of those things could happen. I have my doubts that a few of them WOULD happen.

    I also think that some of them could (or even WILL) happen, whether or not IT "goes National."
    Josh Sirota
    ITR '99 BMW Z3 Coupe

  8. #508
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    I took the request as wanting ITAC folks to consider both "pros and cons" of the idea, so I considered a lot of things that MIGHT happen.

    One (of several) challenges in a discussion like this is that, when someone describes what they think will PROBABLY happen, it gets taken by others as boosterism or trying to force a predetermined decision on others. I just wanted to illustrate that it's possible that some of us might actually be considering an entire range of possible outcomes, even if each of our experiences suggest to us that some are more likely than others.

    I also think that some of them could (or even WILL) happen, whether or not IT "goes National."
    Mark this quote, everyone - it's very important. Another take-away from this conversation for me is that there are some concerns being voiced here that are LIKELY outcomes of any substantial increase in the popularity of IT as a category, even if it continues exactly as it is. That has implications, I think.

    K
    Last edited by Knestis; 05-09-2008 at 09:05 AM.

  9. #509
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    Kirk I think the two of us recognize all the same potential issues (though I don't share your optimism about this potentially having an effect on Speed World Challenge )

    i guess it just comes down to differences in which of those issues the two of us think will actually pan out.
    Travis Nordwald
    1996 ITA Miata
    KC Region

  10. #510
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    I still think we're debating the issues & outcomes without answering the question "What are the reasons for IT to go National?"

    If we discount IT going national as part of some bigger plan for the club, what are the reasons to take IT national? Here are what I think I've heard as some of the reasons:

    - an official gold medal
    - increased competition
    - more track time?

    What else? I think the reasons to do it had better be a good list for it to be considered. Like anything else, it boils down to whether the possible rewards are good enough to justify the perceived risks.

    David
    ITA 240SX #17
    Atlanta Region

  11. #511
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    David you are speaking the truth. I really think the majority of IT racers feel like you do. I know several of my race buddies think IT is fine how it is now and really have no interest in seeing it changed along the lines of going to the RunOffs.
    Mac Spikes
    Cresson, TX (Home of "The Original" MotorSport Ranch)
    "To hell with you Gen. Sheridan...I 'll take Texas!"

  12. #512
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    read kirk's thesis above, it has a whole bunch of reasons.
    Travis Nordwald
    1996 ITA Miata
    KC Region

  13. #513
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    Say what you want (pro or con) about IT having National class status, but understand this is about one thing: money. National office wants your Runoff's entry to add money to the coffers. Everything else is just speculation, personal opinion, or BS - sometimes one in the same.
    Milwaukee Region
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  14. #514
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    Reasons for wanting IT to go National for will be different for different people, as are reasons for not wanting it.
    Andy may want IT to go national so that he can run for the gold medal.
    Jake may want IT to go national so Andy and Greg go race nationals so that he have a better chance to win regionals.
    Some directors may want IT to go national for increased entries at the runoffs.
    Mack may not want IT to go national because he feels he will not enjoy IT as much if it does.
    Some SSC driver may not want IT to go national because he is worried about his class having to compete with IT for a runoffs berth.
    Everybody’s reasons for supporting this or not will be different, all we can really argue is what will change (see Kirk’s list of possible) and if we think that is good or bad.
    dick patullo
    ner scca IT7 Rx7

  15. #515
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    Dick, you lined it out pretty well.
    The club needs to do a bunch of other things way before they think of messing with IT.
    Lots of bigger things to take care of.
    Mac Spikes
    Cresson, TX (Home of "The Original" MotorSport Ranch)
    "To hell with you Gen. Sheridan...I 'll take Texas!"

  16. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by dickita15 View Post
    Some SSC (Or Z XXXX class) driver may not want IT to go national because he is worried about his class having to compete with IT for a runoffs berth....and will argue with cloaked reasoning to hide his true agenda...
    Fixed that for you....

    I love cloaked reasoning, LOL.
    Jake Gulick


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  17. #517
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    What's funny is that it won't be the SSC drivers with that cloaked reasoning. The SSC guys are primarily into finding a way into national racing, in a modern car, at the lowest possible cost. That's the primary reason why SS didn't fold into T -- the additional cost of the few additional allowances, namely shocks and differentials, was really not palatable to the existing SSC population (dwindling as it is.)

    I think a lot of existing SSC drivers would be happy if IT went National, because it would give them a place to play with much the same values, and a lot less of the SSC car-of-the-year frustration.
    Josh Sirota
    ITR '99 BMW Z3 Coupe

  18. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Aldred View Post
    Say what you want (pro or con) about IT having National class status, but understand this is about one thing: money. National office wants your Runoff's entry to add money to the coffers. Everything else is just speculation, personal opinion, or BS - sometimes one in the same.
    Are you on the task force? Have you seen their charge? If not, and you are saying that this is about ONE thing (which you are, see above), then you are guilty of speculation as well.

    I will speculate it's not just about money, although increased entry fees might be one of the reasons it's being considered.

    What's the math on that work out to anyway, Drew?
    Jake Gulick


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  19. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshS View Post
    What's funny is that it won't be the SSC drivers .....
    That's why I "cloaked" (I crack myself up sometimes) my comment with "Z XXXX class", as opposed to "XXX class"..
    Jake Gulick


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  20. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by lateapex911 View Post
    Are you on the task force? Have you seen their charge? If not, and you are saying that this is about ONE thing (which you are, see above), then you are guilty of speculation as well.

    I will speculate it's not just about money, although increased entry fees might be one of the reasons it's being considered.

    What's the math on that work out to anyway, Drew?
    Figure another 200 cars at $300 per, you do the math............
    Milwaukee Region
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