IT National? Anyone else have this experience at a driver's meeting this year?

[tnord]

I'm with you philosophically on making that artificial distinction disappear - I didn't understand it when I went to my first Club Race in 1979, and I don't understand it now.

On the other hand, if one subscribes to the "National = cost increase" hypothesis, wouldn't that aggravate it more, rather than reduce it? What am I missing?

K

nope, you're not missing anything kirk.

if this scenario were to play out i do believe the cost to maintain your current finishing position. the reason i'm ok with it is because i think it would be for the greater good of the club as a whole.

because i don't feel like being long winded and eloquent.....

too many classes = thin grids for everyone
no national/regional distinction + top 24 go = "market" forces at work and classes live and die out naturally

[shwah]

jjjanos,

Are you saying that the cost of competing at regional events will go up as well? I don't agree with that. I definitely see Production cars run at our regionals that are lower budget efforts than a good IT program. Someone that wants to stay regional would become more competitive without spending a dime.

The only argument I'm buying so far is shrinking grids, and it is relatively legit. I mean we are lucky to have 3 ITS cars around here, and the one that shows up every time is a pretty quick one at the ARRC, so he surely would move up. So would somone fill the void and get some easy wins in an underprepped car, or would ITS fade away for a while at our races?

[jjjanos]

jjjanos,

Are you saying that the cost of competing at regional events will go up as well? I don't agree with that. I definitely see Production cars run at our regionals that are lower budget efforts than a good IT program. Someone that wants to stay regional would become more competitive without spending a dime.

I respectfully disagree. See Spec Miata. Going national and attracting the fat fingers of Topeka and the attention of drivers with a certain attitude first dramatically increased the cost of a national program and it trickles its way down to Regionals.

Nor does the absence of competitors make a car/driver more competitive.

Some silly statements need correction. In 2007, all IT class entries (including those such as IT Truck which are region-specific classes not recognized in the GCR) totaled 6293. All regional entries were 22540 and all national entries were 9988. Thus, IT entries were 28% of regional entries and were 19% of all Club Racing entries.

Dave

Dave,

Not doubting, I just want the numbers - could you give a link or pm the car counts by class?

Thanks,

Jeff

[shwah]

I forgot to mention in my original post, that the first question I asked in this post driver's meeting was:
Has the CRB seen what the IT community has created with the ITTC, and that it may already serve the 'purpose' of being national and runoffs eligible?

To be honest, I am really happy with where IT is today, and the ITTC fills my desire to try and find the best competition, but I would run nationaly if IT went national because that is where I would expect to find that higher level competition.

[Knestis]

It would also be a good individual exercise to dig into your division's National calendar and dummy up a schedule of what we each think we might do, were we to consider a "National" run.

I'm left thinking that there are - broadly speaking - going to be two major ways of looking at this puzzle: From the perspective of current IT entrants and from others. While there are undoubtedly going to be a bazillion smaller ways that current entrants are going to respond (we all have different interests, expectations, and opinions), there MIGHT be some big concepts that we as a community can agree upon.

For example, I can imagine a statement that defines as a position our collective interest in the discussion ONLY if we've been satisfied that the National program has made a good faith effort to get its house in order first: If IT is being used as a solution to problems that current national class/category entrants aren't willing to solve for themselves, or that require decisions that are politically/organizationally too difficult for the committees and board to deal with, then that's a first-order issue that needs to be worked out.

Question Number One in response to opening this discussion needs to be, "What current problem is the possible move to National status intended to solve?"

K

[seckerich]

Here is the link to national car counts this year. http://www.scca.com/documents/Club_E...n%20MASTER.pdf

[Andy Bettencourt]

What is broken that I see this fixing? My desire to build, maintain and race a car with the ruleset and cars I think are the best fit for me - for a SCCA National Championship. Yes, I can go National racing in Prod, GT, SM, SRF, etc...but those classes don't interest me as much. I like to upgrade - but not to the tune of Prod, so IT is perfect for me.

As far as 'going National' raising the cost of being competitive in IT - that is a misguided sentiment. POPULARITY raises the cost. The more people, the more competition, the more money. If National status raises the popularity of IT (which I think is inevitable), then costs will rise for some areas.

Opinions will vary on the affects - and that is because in some areas nothing will change in terms of money and prep level. Some areas will see an influx of full-prep cars...and the affects of THAT is also debatable.

You could easliy make the arguement that if the 'heavy hitter' in some of the lesser subscribed pockets goes National, it may actually INCREASE regional competition because the perception of that door opening for the 'average racer' could be there as that HH leaves for a different group of fish to fry.

What is best for the class Nationally is a tough call IMHO.

[John McFarland]

My opinion is this:

Get rid of National and Regional status.
Run all races as Club Races.
Top 24 make the runoffs.

[Ron Earp]

Get rid of National and Regional status.
Run all races as Club Races.
Top 24 make the runoffs.

Now that makes good logical sense.

Let the most raced classes in the SCCA have a runoffs position. No more "regional vs national".

[fiat124girl]

My opinion is this:

Get rid of National and Regional status.
Run all races as Club Races.
Top 24 make the runoffs.

This makes the most sense. Simply allow everyone to race at the same level and the highly subscribed classes make it to the championship.

The cost argument is not a valid argument. We spend as much on our IT cars as we do on our AS cars. It is a matter of what each individual is willing to spend on their hobby.

The whole point behind this organization is for all of us to have a place to spend our extra income and have a good time with our cars and this just opens up the venues for us to race more if we chose.

[jjjanos]

This makes the most sense. Simply allow everyone to race at the same level and the highly subscribed classes make it to the championship.

Random observations:
There's going to be a huge amount of push back from long established classes that have withered through their own stupidity or changes in taste. There will be a huge production if/when this were to happen. Everyone's favorite whipping boy - open-wheel - however seems to be in the clear for the most part.

2. I'd be real interested in seeing the specifics for how one would qualify for the Runoffs when every race awards points. Are drivers limited in the number of races they can use? Are they required to run away from their "home" track? DC Region holds 9 races per year at Summit Point. Are the time requirements going away? etc. Devil is in the details.

[Andy Bettencourt]

2. I'd be real interested in seeing the specifics for how one would qualify for the Runoffs when every race awards points. Are drivers limited in the number of races they can use? Are they required to run away from their "home" track? DC Region holds 9 races per year at Summit Point. Are the time requirements going away? etc. Devil is in the details.

EXCELLENT observation. I had a discussion with a CRB member about this exact thing. Here is how we could do it:

1. Don't eliminate National - Regional. If IT were to make National status, the meaning of the words would just change. National races would become 'Runoff Qualifiers' and Regionals would be what they are now.

If you wanted to eliminate National races and start from scratch, you would put the responsibility of each Division to create and manage a qualifying system in which they would send invites to the top X performers in each class to the Runoffs. You could create a way to determine those that get invites in a wide variety of ways...the possiblilities and combinations are almost endless. Weighted Regionally, Division-wide, really anything. The object being - sending your best performers to the Dance.

[ddewhurst]

***IT cars ARE 70% of ALL entries for Club racing.***
***Per Stan Clayton during year 2007. FWIW, Regional race entries account for about 75% of all entries over the year. ***

Sorry, my mistake folks. Sometimes I get when I don't look back at data info. It still makes a VERY large point being tha IT cars are a LARGE part of Regional racing.

For those playing with numbers, here are some to look at. From 2006/2007 ???

SM 2031 SRF 1407 FV 610 ITA 535 EP 384 FF 355 ITS 355 FA 339 FC 303 FM 293 GT1 280 ITB 268 DSR 265 FP 243 FE 241 AS 225 ITE 197 F5 196 CSR 195 GT2 193 SSB 189 VINTAGE 189 T3 178 SSM 177 ----------------- 24th class GT3 172SRX7 172 T2 172 GTL 163 T1 162 SSC 160ITC 155 S2 152 HP 140-ish (est.)SMT 123 GP 122IT7 121 PRO-7 110 SPO 103 SP 77 CF 68 S944 60 ITR 52 SPU 50 GTA 45 CFC 36 FST 32 CFF 25 DP 23 ITX 23 ST 23 FB 21 NCF 21 CC 20 GTP 19 RS 18 BP 15 PCA2 13 PCA1 12 FSR 9 PCA3 9 ASR 6 ITM 6 SPM 5 SRS 4 ITT 3 SF 3 BG 2 CP1 2 HC 2 SG-2 2 ITU 1

[jjjanos]

For those playing with numbers, here are some to look at. From 2006/2007 ???

GTP 19

Me thinks your data are incomplete. MARRS is the only series that runs GTPinto (GTP) and I can all but guarantee that there were more than 19 cars for GTP in every year of the last 10.

[TAC]

Granted its not the Run-offs....but its a start on a National Championship idea.

Todd


Over the winter an I.T. Advisory Committee made up of drivers from SCCA divisions across the country was formed to explore the idea of having an I.T. National Championship. This idea morphed into the Improved Touring Triple Crown (ITTC). The ITTC is a point series developed to recognize the nation’s best IT drivers. One option to qualify is to combine the best results from your local or divisional series which are listed in the rules and participation in a minimum of two of the following race weekends.

The I.T. West Fest at Thunderhill July 26th-27th

The I.T.SPEC*tacular at Mid Ohio Sports Car Course August 9th-10th

American Road Race of Champions by Grassroots Motorsports November 7th-9th at Road Atlanta

The second option to qualify is to run all three major race weekends.

Points will be awarded for 1st – 18th at each event (Local and Divisional series will be awarded on final season standings) so you don't need to win every segment. Current plans include trophies that will be presented at the ARRC banquet for a podium finish in the ITA, ITB, ITC, ITS, and ITR classes.

A copy of the rules is available on http://www.improvedtouring.com in the IT Championship events forum and at http://www.cincyscca.com. The program has started for the 2008 racing season but you really don’t have to do anything at this time. Entry into the ITTC is free. Since all the events conclude with the ARRC in November and we automatically track your results we only ask that you participate in the events listed above and spread the word.

We're also looking for sponsors to provide contingency prizes so if you're interested in that aspect or know someone who is please let us know.

Best Regards,


Tom Sprecher ITTC Administrator
[email protected]

[ddewhurst]

Numbers posted by CRB member Stan Clayton during June of 2007 therefore the numbers I suspect are from the year 2006. Add em up for what ever you want.

1060 SM
617 SRF
535 ITA
355 ITS
279 FV
268 ITB
197 ITE
189 VINTAGE
177 SSM
172 SRX7
155 ITC
141 EP + 243 National entries Jan-May = 384 total entries
141 FF
126 FC
123 SMT
121 IT7
111 FM
110 PRO-7
103 SPO
102 GT1
96 AS
83 F5
78 FA
77 SP
74 FP + 169 = 243
68 CF
60 DSR
60 S944
56 GT2
53 FE
52 ITR
50 SPU
48 GTL
47 GP + 75 = 122
46 CSR
45 GTA
44 FE
41 T1
39 GT3
39 SSB
39 SSC
38 S2
38 T2
36 CFC
35 T3
32 FST
25 CFF
23 ITX
21 NCF
20 CC
19 GTP
18 RS
15 BP
13 PCA2
12 PCA1
9 FSR
9 PCA3
9 ST
9 FB
6 ASR
6 ITM
5 DP
5 SPM
4 SRS
3 ITT
3 SF
2 BG
2 CP1
2 HC
2 SG-2
1 ITU
0 HP + 112

[shwah]

too many classes = thin grids for everyone
no national/regional distinction + top 24 go = "market" forces at work and classes live and die out naturally

I agree with this, but I also think this is a much larger challenge to implement within the club, than changing the status of one category. It is really a separate issue, that we should start writing some letters about IMO.

[ddewhurst]

jjjaNos has it covered IMHJ.

****Dander: Topeka wants to suckle at the teat of the ARRC and ITFest. Having treated IT like a bastard step-child, unfit to associate with the gentry, I see no reason to recognize Topeka's attempt to invite us in to sit with civilized society since the only reason they are doing it is because they see us as a cash cow. Having completely fubared the Runoffs (tm) by allowing so many National classes to wither and then putting the patient into shock through Startline Steve's ramming Heartland Park down the club's throat, Topeka wants one thing and one thing only - our money. As it now stands, IT has its own "championships" and Topeka has got its panties in a knot because they aren't getting their blood money.****

IT cars ARE 70% of ALL entries for Club racing.

As we all know many Divisions could not make it if their Nationals didn't have restricted Regionals assocated with them. Golly ain't Restricted Regional called inviting IT cars.

Car counts have been sliding for a couple years from my eye viewing.

Is the U.S. in a recession or what ever you want to call it.

IT National WIIL raise the cost

IT National WILL lessen the Regional car count. (ala Spec Miata)

[Dave Gomberg]

IT cars ARE 70% of ALL entries for Club racing.

Some silly statements need correction. In 2007, all IT class entries (including those such as IT Truck which are region-specific classes not recognized in the GCR) totaled 6293. All regional entries were 22540 and all national entries were 9988. Thus, IT entries were 28% of regional entries and were 19% of all Club Racing entries.

Dave

[Ron Earp]

I did not check your numbers but they seem to ring true with what I remember from a SportsCar a few months ago.

IT Entires at 6293 is significant. 63% as large as the ENTIRE National Program and we're only talking about IT. The entire Regional Racing Program dwarfs the National Program.

To get the true picture I think you need to break down the National numbers. If I recall correctly Spec Miata (a former regional program) and SRF make up most of the National entires. Without SM the National program would be hurting worse than it already is.

I see this proposed move the way jjjanos sees it - Topeka wants to grab some of what IT has to offer. One way or another IT won't be the same if this comes to pass.

Ron