Welded seat rails

[Commy]

I have to contend with a few rust spots on the floor board of my ITB VW. They are in both corners were the seat rails are mounted to the rocker box. I don't think it is that big of a deal to remove the driver's side rail because I am going to need a way to fab up a mount for the seat. If I am wrong about this, let me know. The passenger side is a bit more difficult for me to understand. Do I have to remount the rails when I am done fixing the rust spots? Can I remove the two front seat guides that contain the locking pins? I ask this because they are a part of the seat mounting and have no structural meaning to the chasie. It would be a lot easier if they had simply bolted these to the car instead of welding them, but it is what it is.

Here is an image to give you an idea of what I am talking about, and also what happens when you take a northern car and try and convert it to an IT car.

[lateapex911]

Well, you know my stance on this, but to get the ball rolling, I'll give it to you anyway. (I know you're looking for opinions, and just want to do what's right)

I think that you are free and clear on the drivers side, but I see no such allowance on the pass side. IMO, the rail and such must remain.

[Spinnetti]

Cut off rails, fix rust, weld back on... its just repair.... What's the issue there?

(PS, too much of my 20's was spent welding rusted out Northern Swiss cheese Rabbits and Sciroccos!)

[Gary L]

I think that you are free and clear on the drivers side, but I see no such allowance on the pass side. IMO, the rail and such must remain.

I disagree... the rails can be tossed, IMO. From page 339 of the GCR (9.1.3.D.9.e):

e. Front passenger seat, rear seat back, rear seat bottom cushion(s), sun visors, seat belts and their attaching hardware and bracketry may be removed.

Why wouldn't the front passenger seat rails be part of the attaching hardware and bracketry? Or am I misunderstanding the question?

[JeffYoung]

I agree. Looks like a bracket to me.

[Knestis]

Fair question but I'm of the opinion that the point at which one is cutting, one is removing body structure. Otherwise, where do we stop?

Admittedly, this is a conservative position but take a look at how much metal touches where the rear sit perches...



If one suggests that those ratcheted rails can go, then the bits that support the rear seat latches (top of strut) can go too, right? And the "shelf" that supports the front of the rear seat ? And the floor where the back of the seat sits? And any piece of the pillars, roof, floor, and inner bulkheads that include threaded bosses for visors or belts.

The question, once the cutting begins, is where to stop.

It's been a while since I shared this (very good, IMO) example of how these things go wrong: Back in the TransAm of the '70s, some clever person wrote a rule that suspension pieces (like A-arms) could be "lightened" and "reinforced." Some even more clever bloke decided that meant he could "lighten" an arm down to nothing, and reinforce the resulting airspace with whatever tubes and plates he wanted...

K

[JeffYoung]

Good points.

I guess again this is one of those areas where there is some subjectivity. To me, it would be clear what I could and couldn't do. I could remove that rail on the floor and be perfectly fine. It's the bracket that holds the seat in. Could I remove the tab on the strut tower? Sure, I guess I could but that is starting to stretch it. Beyond that, I don't see anything that is performing a "sole function" of seat bracket.

Thoughts?

[Commy]

I know I asked this at another site, so bear with me Kirk and the rest that have already read this.

As I stated above, if it was simply bolted to the car, it is not an issue. This is welded to the rocker box. Please note the "to" statement. Things like the sunvisor and seat belt mounting locations as well as the lower rear seat base are a part of the roof, floor and pillar structure and serve a duel purpose. This is were I see the point of where you can say the line is drawn.

I would also like to state that I am going to just put them back in and not worry about it. I am also not looking to see what I can "get away with" in the gray areas, just looking for a better understanding to how things work in the system.

[Knestis]

Welcome to the wild world of IT rules interpretations!

>> ...Thoughts?

It's a steep slope...?

K

[StephenB]

I know I asked this at another site, so bear with me Kirk and the rest that have already read this.

As I stated above, if it was simply bolted to the car, it is not an issue. This is welded to the rocker box. Please note the "to" statement. Things like the sunvisor and seat belt mounting locations as well as the lower rear seat base are a part of the roof, floor and pillar structure and serve a duel purpose. This is were I see the point of where you can say the line is drawn.

I would also like to state that I am going to just put them back in and not worry about it. I am also not looking to see what I can "get away with" in the gray areas, just looking for a better understanding to how things work in the system.

I think they can be removed for exactly what you stated here. The front seat rails are fastened (YES Welded but still fastened) to the structure of the car. They are not a modified part of the structure that serves a dual purpose. The bits that support the rear seat latches (top of strut),the "shelf" that supports the front of the rear seat, the floor where the back of the seat sits? And any piece of the pillars, roof, floor, and inner bulkheads that include threaded bosses for visors or belts all appear to be part of the structure that serves a dual purpose to also hold in the seat, accesories and all mounting brackets that are allowed to be removed. If you where saying the rocer could be removed because it holds the seat bracket than I would think you were off your rocker and stretching the rules similar to the examples that I listed that serve a dual purpose.

To me this is black and white. They are fastened to the structure, they are a mounting device that serves only to mount the seat and has no other purpose. It therefor can go.

Just my 2 cents
Stephen
ITB Audi Coupe

[Knestis]

Hmm. The "dual purpose" criteria actually resonates for me.

So you're saying, if the [insert description here] serves ONLY to support the seat, visor, belt, whatever then it's fair game. If it does anything else, it's not...? That might be an operative description that works.

K

[Ron Earp]

Chop that rusted stuff out of your floor, repair it without re-enforcing anything, and move on with your build. If anything the seat rail would add a bit of structural integrity to the floor pan and I'd probably keep it, but I can't imagine that anyone is going to give you grief if it gets torched.

[JeffYoung]

Kirk, quoting myself, but that was exactly my thought. If the piece in question is ONLY a bracket, but welded in, it can come out. If doing something else too, then it stays.

Plus, like ron said, if it is a stiffening device, and "low" in the car, why would you want to take it out?

Good points.

I guess again this is one of those areas where there is some subjectivity. To me, it would be clear what I could and couldn't do. I could remove that rail on the floor and be perfectly fine. It's the bracket that holds the seat in. Could I remove the tab on the strut tower? Sure, I guess I could but that is starting to stretch it. Beyond that, I don't see anything that is performing a "sole function" of seat bracket.

Thoughts?

[Knestis]

...because we're still overweight and if anything, Kevin's Jetta is going to be harder to get down to the minimum.

I can picture probably 12-15 pounds that can come out in an afternoon with this interpretation.

Is that where we want to go? How about the even more liberal interpretation that the "brackets" that hold on other parts that may be removed can go, too - even absent the specific language included in the seat clause?

K

[JeffYoung]

Hmmm...no, I'd think you need specific allowance to take other bracketry and stuff out. But then the question becomes, if they rules say you can take "X" out, is "X" defined to include that bracket or hardware by which it is attached?

[joeg]

Take it out and leave it out. You need to remove that seat bracket to properly fix the rot.

[Commy]

Take it out and leave it out. You need to remove that seat bracket to properly fix the rot.

You better believe these are coming out so I can fix the rot. I am now on the fence as to if I am going to reinstall the passenger side brackets. They could add strength to the repair (I do not think they will add much strength to the whole length), but it is weight. I am also considering this because it is something that uses a spot weld for an attachment instead of a nut and/or bolt. Also, to tell you the truth, the front seat guide really does get in the way of moving around the front passenger seat compartment. I would hate to have to make an emergency exit out that side and get caught on the stupid thing. I guess I will have to look at it and decide what I think I should do.

And trust me, I have no illusions that this car will EVER make minimum weight. If it does, I might pass out on the spot. If I do, would someone please wake me and tell me it was not a dream?

[Gary L]

I am also considering this because it is something that uses a spot weld for an attachment instead of a nut and/or bolt.

The rule does not qualify the removal by saying "...unless it's welded to the body." The rule specifically states it may be removed, with no qualifiers, no conditions attached.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think they can be removed for exactly what you stated here. The front seat rails are fastened (YES Welded but still fastened) to the structure of the car. They are not a modified part of the structure that serves a dual purpose. The bits that support the rear seat latches (top of strut),the "shelf" that supports the front of the rear seat, the floor where the back of the seat sits? And any piece of the pillars, roof, floor, and inner bulkheads that include threaded bosses for visors or belts all appear to be part of the structure that serves a dual purpose to also hold in the seat, accesories and all mounting brackets that are allowed to be removed. If you where saying the rocer could be removed because it holds the seat bracket than I would think you were off your rocker and stretching the rules similar to the examples that I listed that serve a dual purpose.

To me this is black and white. They are fastened to the structure, they are a mounting device that serves only to mount the seat and has no other purpose. It therefor can go.

Just my 2 cents
Stephen
ITB Audi Coupe

From the GCR Technical glossery:

Fasteners - Any mechanism which serves no other purpose than to cause a component to maintain a fixed position (i.e. bolt, nut, screw, etc).

If a 'bracket' is welded in place, it is part of the car IMHO and can not be removed. Of course this only applies to the passenger side as the drivers side stock stuff is allowed to be removed to facilitate the racing seat.

[Knestis]

Okay - here's two better (and different) views of another piece.





You're telling me that I can remove the vertical piece that runs the full width of where the back seat used to mount, right? The parapet wall lookin' thingie. Yeah - that bracket right there...

K